The voice of reason.phil1993 wrote:They split the strategies to cover Grosjean. If Webber would have got past Grosjean like Vettel did, he could have won.
2013 Formula 1 Japanese Grand Prix
Re: 2013 Formula 1 Japanese Grand Prix
Re: 2013 Formula 1 Japanese Grand Prix
If you look at the lap times, I think quite simply, they saw a chance to get Vettel ahead of Grosjean. They didn't want to have to call team orders on Webber so the simplest way round that was to pit him. They worked out they could still get a 1-2 because Webber had enough time on new tyres to catch and pass Grosjean so that's what they did.
Re: 2013 Formula 1 Japanese Grand Prix
You really expect some people will understand and believe in a great explanation like this?phil1993 wrote:They split the strategies to cover Grosjean. If Webber would have got past Grosjean like Vettel did, he could have won.
Human at Sight,
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Re: 2013 Formula 1 Japanese Grand Prix
Hello - my first input
My vision of RBRs "behavior":
Everyone will agree that RBR had to split their strategy - not to do it was a discussed mistake of Mercedes this season (do not remember the race)
Everyone will agree that Webber would have had good chances for victory if he passes Grosjean as fast as Vettel!
Everyone will agree that we would have the same discussion, if Vettel has won the race with "Webber strategy"
But had there ever been so much discussion about Ferraris teamorder? And again, everyone MUST agree that Ferraris teamorder is/was much more distinctive than RBRs. The only definitve discussion was in Zeltweg with its famous "let Michail pass for championship". Their rear gunner had no chance - here the rear gunner had a chance and RBR had to split the teamorder. We are already discussing a teamorder of RBR without knowing wether it was one.
So, the only thing we can discuss whether the decision that Webber had to take three stops is a teamorder?
At last: I have the impression that many F1-Fans messure with bifocal perspective.
My vision of RBRs "behavior":
Everyone will agree that RBR had to split their strategy - not to do it was a discussed mistake of Mercedes this season (do not remember the race)
Everyone will agree that Webber would have had good chances for victory if he passes Grosjean as fast as Vettel!
Everyone will agree that we would have the same discussion, if Vettel has won the race with "Webber strategy"
But had there ever been so much discussion about Ferraris teamorder? And again, everyone MUST agree that Ferraris teamorder is/was much more distinctive than RBRs. The only definitve discussion was in Zeltweg with its famous "let Michail pass for championship". Their rear gunner had no chance - here the rear gunner had a chance and RBR had to split the teamorder. We are already discussing a teamorder of RBR without knowing wether it was one.
So, the only thing we can discuss whether the decision that Webber had to take three stops is a teamorder?
At last: I have the impression that many F1-Fans messure with bifocal perspective.
Re: 2013 Formula 1 Japanese Grand Prix
Welcome^
I don't think Vettel or anyone else could have won with Webbers strategy, but it was what RBR had to do to secure a 1-2 finish. It seemed stupid to me during the race, but it's quite clear now. Webber has always had the more stops strategy when they were split.
I don't think Vettel or anyone else could have won with Webbers strategy, but it was what RBR had to do to secure a 1-2 finish. It seemed stupid to me during the race, but it's quite clear now. Webber has always had the more stops strategy when they were split.
Re: 2013 Formula 1 Japanese Grand Prix
Had Webber used his DRS - he forgot - to get past Grosjean with about 10 laps to go, then it would have been very close.
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Re: 2013 Formula 1 Japanese Grand Prix
Can't remember that there were any discussions about the teamorders of Ferrari AND Lotus this season. They have done it SEVERAL times.
@Vorull: Thanks!
I miss the discussion about the teamorder of Ferrari this race!
@Vorull: Thanks!
I miss the discussion about the teamorder of Ferrari this race!
Re: 2013 Formula 1 Japanese Grand Prix
He was too far anyway at that try. Bigger problem was his line following Grosjean through spoon. He got very close to him and then switched to a wider line which only made him lose ground, no benefits.
Re: 2013 Formula 1 Japanese Grand Prix
That's the difference between the very good and the great I guess.
If the roles were reversed, I wonder what the reaction would be?
Regarding Ferrari, they wanted Alonso further up earlier on in the race but Massa held his ground. In the end it didn't matter.
If the roles were reversed, I wonder what the reaction would be?
Regarding Ferrari, they wanted Alonso further up earlier on in the race but Massa held his ground. In the end it didn't matter.
Re: 2013 Formula 1 Japanese Grand Prix
Much closer or Turkey 2010
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Re: 2013 Formula 1 Japanese Grand Prix
Count the teamorders of Ferrari and Lotus and then count the discussions about them (X:0). After that you - and not only you - tell me why you are now discussing teamorder, which happend maybe, and not the teamorders oft the others.Vorull wrote:Much closer or Turkey 2010
Re: 2013 Formula 1 Japanese Grand Prix
Because Ferrari and Lotus team orders are too mainstream to discuss
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Re: 2013 Formula 1 Japanese Grand Prix
Should mean, that they happened countless often.Vorull wrote:Because Ferrari and Lotus team orders are too mainstream to discuss
Because this is an absolute avowal any more discussions have been getting redundant.
Re: 2013 Formula 1 Japanese Grand Prix
Team orders are team orders, and it's as legal as it is written in the rule book. I never argue about team orders, but RB and Vettel's behaviour are those things that make me sick. Sometimes, it really is fine to openly said that you need one driver pass the 'number 2' driver. It's much fairer to openly and being confident saying that it's a team order!
This race is one example of a stupid team order, yes they surely can still snatch 1-2, but what people should really think is actually Webber was winning the race! But RB didn't want to that happened or Vettel did, I don't know! But it is much better that they openly show that.. Not by telling stupid strategies that Webber need to switch to 3 stops to get to the chequered flag.. It's a rubbish excuse, totally nonsense.
As I mention, I am not a great fond of team orders, but it actually is happens several times and I'm fine with it.. But not on this kind of 'team orders'. This misleadingly show like Vettel did a very good job, but I think he didn't really race as well as his teammate in this particular GP. Hey Vettel is a great driver I know, but it's a shame to disguise his underperform by doing such thing like this kind of 'team orders'.
He leads so many points ahead of his closest rival, even he could win the constructors championship by his own points! But RB still need the team orders.. Funny enough. That's why I never like this team. Maybe if Horner is fired and replaced by someone else..
This race is one example of a stupid team order, yes they surely can still snatch 1-2, but what people should really think is actually Webber was winning the race! But RB didn't want to that happened or Vettel did, I don't know! But it is much better that they openly show that.. Not by telling stupid strategies that Webber need to switch to 3 stops to get to the chequered flag.. It's a rubbish excuse, totally nonsense.
As I mention, I am not a great fond of team orders, but it actually is happens several times and I'm fine with it.. But not on this kind of 'team orders'. This misleadingly show like Vettel did a very good job, but I think he didn't really race as well as his teammate in this particular GP. Hey Vettel is a great driver I know, but it's a shame to disguise his underperform by doing such thing like this kind of 'team orders'.
He leads so many points ahead of his closest rival, even he could win the constructors championship by his own points! But RB still need the team orders.. Funny enough. That's why I never like this team. Maybe if Horner is fired and replaced by someone else..
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Re: 2013 Formula 1 Japanese Grand Prix
If I hear that Webber forgot to use DRS I think it's a courageous assumption that Webber would also have won the race.Ether wrote: This race is one example of a stupid team order, yes they surely can still snatch 1-2, but what
Ferrari did it several times despite the fact that they and Schumacher dominated F1. So you surely also hate Ferrari - or?