Gran Premio de España 2013

Who will win the Spanish Grand Prix?

Sebastian Vettel
5
23%
Kimi Raikkonen
4
18%
Lewis Hamilton
3
14%
Fernando Alonso
5
23%
Mark Webber
2
9%
Felipe Massa
1
5%
Romain Grosjean
0
No votes
Paul di Resta
0
No votes
Nico Rosberg
0
No votes
Jenson Button
1
5%
Sergio Perez
1
5%
Other
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 22

dacer
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Re: Gran Premio de España 2013

Post by dacer » 14 May 2013, 15:34

mikhailv wrote:But tyres have always been influential. Always in Formula 1. On the right tyre? Make the tyre last? What stint do you use the tyre? How do I drive on the out lap? How do maintain a relative pace? Which tyre manufacturer do I go with?
+1

Remember when ferrari was very soft with tyres, the take 2-3 laps to warm up, so everyone overtake them, and then ferraris had the best pace and got overtake any other. Again they changed tyres because others do, and then lost this place again. Ferrari this season took a decision, be carefully with tyres, but was not the right choice, so they loose.
mikhailv wrote:Its people whinging because their team is losing. Simple as.
+1

As I loose, change rules. = whining. But Kidding when we are on race 5 of 20, are WHINING!!!!

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Re: Gran Premio de España 2013

Post by dacer » 14 May 2013, 15:36

Suntrek wrote:because that means Pirelli CAN manipulate races in the future -> better tyres -> Red Bull. worse tyres -> other team.
Not, if tyres are the same from preseasson to last race.

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Re: Gran Premio de España 2013

Post by phil1993 » 14 May 2013, 15:43

Exactly.

Ferrari hired Hamashima to sort out their tyre warm up issues after it plagued them in 2011. In 2012 they had the best car on the grid in terms of tyres.

Red Bull recently hired Pierre Wache, a former Michelin engineer. He was in charge of vehicle dynamics at Sauber last year. Red Bull - I believe - reckon he was the reason why the C31 was so kind on its tyres.

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Re: Gran Premio de España 2013

Post by mikhailv » 14 May 2013, 15:53

I would like to put forward this evidence, on why the Pirelli tyres are doing nothing wrong.

2011 race winner Sebastien Vettel; total race time 1hr 39mins 3secs
2013 race winner Fernando Alosno; total race time 1hr 39mins 16secs

2011 we had exhaust blown diffusers, durable tyres. Vettel was pushed over the line by Lewis hamilton who couldnt overtake even with DRS.

Here is a lap by lap run down of Vettels times;

1 1:35.274 (SU)[2]
2 1:30.633 [2]
3 1:30.549 [2]
4 1:30.346 [2]
5 1:30.120 [2]
6 1:30.023 [2]
7 1:30.062 [2]
8 1:30.326 [2]
9 1:32.911 PIT[4]
10 1:47.780 (SU)[6]
11 1:30.311 [3]
12 1:29.673 [2]
13 1:29.497 [2]
14 1:29.944 [2]
15 1:29.723 [2]
16 1:29.949 [2]
17 1:30.170 [2]
18 1:33.001 PIT[4]
19 1:44.115 (SN)[4]
20 1:28.061 [2]
21 1:27.394 [2]
22 1:28.078 [2]
23 1:28.571 [2]
24 1:28.782 [1]
25 1:28.511 [1]
26 1:28.544 [1]
27 1:28.447 [1]
28 1:28.394 [1]
29 1:28.824 [1]
30 1:29.704 [1]
31 1:28.998 [1]
32 1:29.161 [1]
33 1:30.247 [1]
34 1:32.572 PIT[2]
35 1:46.533 (HU)[2]
36 1:28.563 [1]
37 1:28.689 [1]
38 1:28.562 [1]
39 1:28.865 [1]
40 1:28.953 [1]
41 1:28.802 [1]
42 1:28.193 [1]
43 1:27.933 [1]
44 1:28.987 [1]
45 1:28.007 [1]
46 1:28.087 [1]
47 1:28.177 [1]
48 1:31.072 PIT[2]
49 1:44.905 (HN)[2]
50 1:27.774 [1]
51 1:27.456 [1]
52 1:27.839 [1]
53 1:27.215 [1]
54 1:27.639 [1]
55 1:28.207 [1]
56 1:27.871 [1]
57 1:27.557 [1]
58 1:27.435 [1]
59 1:27.474 [1]
60 1:27.162 [1]
61 1:27.205 [1]
62 1:27.675 [1]
63 1:27.480 [1]
64 1:28.065 [1]
65 1:27.842 [1]
66 1:28.382 [1]

Not bad. But wait, what!? Alonso's 2013 laptimes were very similar!!!!????

1 1:35.662 (MU)[3]
2 1:31.152 [3]
3 1:31.517 [3]
4 1:30.646 [3]
5 1:30.916 [3]
6 1:31.066 [3]
7 1:31.065 [3]
8 1:31.257 [3]
9 1:33.676 PIT[4]
10 1:44.751 (HU)[7]
11 1:30.658 [3]
12 1:30.089 [3]
13 1:29.105 [1]
14 1:28.703 [1]
15 1:29.504 [1]
16 1:29.586 [1]
17 1:29.399 [1]
18 1:29.390 [1]
19 1:29.838 [1]
20 1:30.324 [1]
21 1:33.417 PIT[1]
22 1:45.421 (HN)[4]
23 1:27.731 [3]
24 1:28.250 [3]
25 1:28.088 [2]
26 1:28.444 [1]
27 1:28.520 [1]
28 1:28.546 [1]
29 1:28.428 [1]
30 1:29.000 [1]
31 1:29.202 [1]
32 1:29.148 [1]
33 1:29.996 [1]
34 1:29.705 [1]
35 1:29.993 [1]
36 1:33.318 PIT[1]
37 1:43.923 (MU)[2]
38 1:27.887 [2]
39 1:27.440 [1]
40 1:28.247 [1]
41 1:27.817 [1]
42 1:28.374 [1]
43 1:28.644 [1]
44 1:28.290 [1]
45 1:28.529 [1]
46 1:28.458 [1]
47 1:28.610 [1]
48 1:28.580 [1]
49 1:32.066 PIT[1]
50 1:41.888 (HN)[1]
51 1:26.773 [1]
52 1:27.246 [1]
53 1:26.681 [1]
54 1:27.530 [1]
55 1:27.202 [1]
56 1:27.827 [1]
57 1:27.802 [1]
58 1:28.031 [1]
59 1:28.250 [1]
60 1:28.849 [1]
61 1:28.191 [1]
62 1:27.990 [1]
63 1:28.724 [1]
64 1:29.211 [1]
65 1:29.414 [1]
66 1:32.611 [1]

Well would you look at that, eh? without EBD, pushing 90% as opposed to full EBD on the most dominant car since 2004 at 100% all race? just 13 seconds? Well well well.

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mikhailv
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Re: Gran Premio de España 2013

Post by mikhailv » 14 May 2013, 16:00

Alsoe, fastest laps;

Spanish gp 2011;
1. hamilton 1.26.727
2. Barrichello 1.26.891
3. Heidfeld 1.26.958
4. Vettel 1.27.162

Spanish GP 2013:
1. Gutierrez 1.26.2
2. Massa 1.26.3
3. Sutil 1.26.564
4. Hulkenberg 1.26.585
5. Alonso 1.26.6

So even WITHOUT EBD, theyre faster. Soft and Hard was the 2011 allocation, Medium and Hard was this years allocation which is the equivelant of Soft and Medium of last year, right?

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Re: Gran Premio de España 2013

Post by tderias » 14 May 2013, 16:19

So much politics going on these days it's making me sick, and the F1 community seems totally divided now...

The tyres are the same for everyone, just as the double diffuser was the same for everyone, and just as the F-duct was the same for everyone. Let's hope we see some consistency from the powers in command...

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Re: Gran Premio de España 2013

Post by F1EA » 14 May 2013, 16:20

The problem is that it was very clear before the end of last season, that this yr's tires were going to be more fragile.

Most teams worked their car around that premise. The biggest failure has been Mercedes, but it's made to look even worse because they have decided to showboat Q. If they set up their cars to Q where they more or less belong (P4-7) then they wouldn't be looking so terrible.

Red Bull is left wondering why they are not grabbing 1-2 in Q and running away in the races, and of course would rather go back to when it was like that.

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Re: Gran Premio de España 2013

Post by mikhailv » 14 May 2013, 16:30

The tyres were tested in Brazil last year but halfway through the season we were told theyre going to be given less durability after the processions which was the last half of last year which lets be frank, outside of crashes and cars out of position, it was rubbish and disapointing.

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Re: Gran Premio de España 2013

Post by phil1993 » 14 May 2013, 16:37

Pirelli asks for more modern car.

Teams don't give them one and they end up with an R30.

That doesn't help either.

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Re: Gran Premio de España 2013

Post by dacer » 14 May 2013, 17:07

Hamilton and Massa destroy their tyres, but Vettel win. Everything it's OK.

Vettel loose, PLEASE CHAGE Tyres.

It's a joke.

sl2

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Re: Gran Premio de España 2013

Post by iceman1 » 14 May 2013, 17:09

Check our gallery for Hi-res pictures from Barcelona:

http://www.f1zone.net/news/gallery/2013 ... h-gp-2013/

I tried to show the tyres as much as I could :lol:

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Re: Gran Premio de España 2013

Post by phil1993 » 14 May 2013, 17:14

I think the problem people need to realise is that it was never Pirelli's brief to have 4 stop races. It was 2/3 stops. Hembery admitted that right at the end of the race, prior to any team criticism.

The issue for me is whether they go too far the other way. We had 4 stops in Spain 2011 but by mid-season it was 2. Even 1. That will happen this season.

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Re: Gran Premio de España 2013

Post by Ether » 15 May 2013, 03:16

F1EA wrote:The problem is that it was very clear before the end of last season, that this yr's tires were going to be more fragile.

Most teams worked their car around that premise. The biggest failure has been Mercedes, but it's made to look even worse because they have decided to showboat Q. If they set up their cars to Q where they more or less belong (P4-7) then they wouldn't be looking so terrible.

Red Bull is left wondering why they are not grabbing 1-2 in Q and running away in the races, and of course would rather go back to when it was like that.

No, Mercedes didn't set up the car for Q, but for race! You could read Nico's quote after the race. They didn't focus on Q at all, you could see too they focus on long run in practices. They didn't expect for pole! Or even a 1-2! They were surprised by the Q results. So that's why I'm still confused of what happen in Mercedes. It's phenomenal, something that I haven't seen just because of tyres.. Funnier things is Rosberg and Hamilton said that both confused on what happen and why. Even Nico pointed so strange when why is the tyre so different in saturdays compare to sundays! Remember that the car is in parc femme and I believe so nothing's change! As Hamilton said that no change were made after practice 3. He didn't even make a change especially for preparing the race and Q. I think he was also not confident and not quite sure about the correct set up.

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Re: Gran Premio de España 2013

Post by Ether » 15 May 2013, 03:28

Okay I agree that tyres was always been important every year. But tyres should have been a factor that is equal to any parts or components involved in the cars. Tyres is important, no cars can run without tyres, but remember that engine, aero, suspension, steering, exhaust, and ao many other things should have been involved in producing the best car. Problem is, right now tyres is too dominant factor than other factors.. I might be wrong, I'm not an engineer, and I probably don't have enough understandings on these, but I feel dominant factor on tyres was not correct.

Regarding Bridgestone and Michelin rivalry, I believe it was nothing wrong. It's something normal, it depends on how they use it. It's like how they use the engine. In this situation, I believe was still normal, because tyres were equal importance as engine. As probably any other parts.
But nowadays Pirelli is unpredictable. If one team really do make it really well, I'd say Ferrari and Lotus. But could you explain what's the factor when they did badly in some tracks. Not suitable with the tracks? I don't really think so.. Lotus was bad in Sepang, why??

If we measure well on what the teams or cars could done with those tyres, we will probably still see some consistent results. This is I believe something all you fan don't like to see.. But remember, this is about who do the best job right? From time to time, everybody will know what is the key to solve tyre problems. But tyre problems should have been a consistent to read IF the tyres itself IS CONSISTENT!
I have some faith that Pirelli is somewhere more than producing exciting race with highly degradeable tyres. He might probably playing on their tyres, the consistency of tyres is probably changed in every race, and teams should learn every time. Teams just need to know what pirelli is doing and find the right numbers to do the right thing

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Re: Gran Premio de España 2013

Post by Joey Zyla » 15 May 2013, 07:10

Suntrek wrote:
mikhailv wrote:
Vlad-SRB wrote:
mikhailv wrote:
Vlad-SRB wrote:Tyres influence racing just too much. Today's race was the best proof of that. This is not the F1 I want to see.

Because it dont suit your team :zz:

Tell me a season where tyres were never important regarding which manufacturer, which wet tyre, which compound worked better, why a team couldnt switch a tyre on.

I was most gutted about Mercedes, to be honest. It was really a bad thing to see. And yes, I still don't change my opinion. tyres are just too influential in this part of the season. I hope they'll change it.
But tyres have always been influential. Always in Formula 1. On the right tyre? Make the tyre last? What stint do you use the tyre? How do I drive on the out lap? How do maintain a relative pace? Which tyre manufacturer do I go with? Do I design my car around a harder bridgestone or do I go for a softer Michelin which likes understeer?

Tyres have ALWAYS been heavily influential in Formula 1. ALWAYS. Anyone who says, like yourself, that tyres are too influential is bias and blind to the past 13 years minimum. Were you moaning about Bridgestone having superiority by getting tyres specifically for Ferrari, the rest of the bridgestone users being given secondary tyres? Alternatively, did you moan about Michelin being better in 2005 and 2006?

Zero equality and parity between teams there. Tyres influenced whether you even stood a chance of fighting for the WDC let alone whether you would get THE best tyres from that manufacturer.

Its people whinging because their team is losing. Simple as. I didn't berate Pirelli because Ferrari couldn't work the hard tyres in 2011. Its down to the design of the car. What did Ferrari do? Hire Hamashima. Solved their problems.

Formula 1 is about building a race winning car. That means a car that can use its tyres, its engine, its mechanical grip to maximum effect. If the tyres last all race; then its about making an endurance F1 car. If the tyres don't last all race, its about a car which can extract the performance without punishing the rubber.

It used to be about who could nail the manufacturer of tyres best. I remember 2006; Button still struggled with the front right warming up. What did they do? Adapt the suspension, he changed how he warmed the tyres up. Job done.

RBR's problem is they cannot adapt, Newey builds a downforce rocket and is succeptable to straightline speed and tyre degredation. Whats the difference between that and a car which is succeptable to mechanical failures? NONE. Its upto the team to sort its own problems out.

What do RBR want? To get more bhp from the Renault engine and the tyres durable so it suits THEM. How about building and adapting your car to suit the equipment universally given to all?
Whatever tyre make/ engine make/car make we've had in the past they'd always tried to make the optimum they could do in their branch respectively. That's normal and sound in any given sport. (and yes., I realize I'm an idiot for still considering F1 a "sport") I'd say FIA did big mistake when asking Pirelli to make s*** tyres just to add to the spectacle, because that means Pirelli CAN manipulate races in the future -> better tyres -> Red Bull. worse tyres -> other team. Do we really want the outcome of races decided by ONE tyre maker who's suceptible to who yells the loudest? This is a discussion totally new to F1 and it's not going to end well. Whatever pans out, it'll give a bad taste in the mouth. This is a sport that was deliberately manipulated from FIA themselves and now we have to live with it, because if you START manipulating, there'll be no end to it. And yes, I don't give a damn about Red Bull, I am an Alonso fan. I just want the sport to be clean. And yes, I'm naiive. :(
To be fair the FIA was under pressure from all the fans that were whining about "not enough overtaking".

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