Grande Prêmio Petrobras do Brasil 2012

[mikhailv]

Sniffpetrol gets it right. Where is Ferrari heading to. Hey Domenicali, make the f**k**g car a winner and there will be nothing debatable left. Sure, put four wheels to a bath tub and Fernando will do the rest. But really, he can't turn water into wine even if he is the best of current drivers. When will Ferrari engineers start to really listen the feedback from drivers

Wow, that sounds a bit like something i wrote yesterday somewhere else:

Domenicalli is no technical guy. He's a manager, a does a good job at the management/politics stuff. Ferrari definitely improved since Pat Fry came along. BUT what they need is a big big push in car design. I mean, being perfect means squat when your car qualifies 7 and has trouble making Q3.

In that sense, Vettel has a huge buffer when it comes to mistakes and team errors. From dead last to points positions in a few laps...... doesn't take a genius to know as long as the RB didnt break down, there was no way of getting them. Not even by being 'perfect'. And Ferrari should know, because this is what they did when Schumacher was unbeatable.

Do people seriously think Vettel is that great to come back from dead last, manage a botched pit stop, several mistakes by the team or his, in other races, and still win it? Get real. If he was, he would have won the wdc in his Toro Rosso and not just a race under "alternative" conditions in a peculiar track.

Of course, he is very good, and now you can add talk about his will to win, his strenght of mind an the strenght of the team to work under pressure... and all that c**p. While Alonso can go and tweet his life away with Samurai quotes. All that gets cushioned (and in Alonso's case crushed) by a superior car.

Bottom line: Ferrari (and anyother team) don't need to be perfect or have "the best driver"; they need the best car.

3 yrs with a wind tunnel problem?? WTF?! That's unacceptable; and unless Domenicalli starts taking no excuses... they will not win.

Repeat after me:
It's...
All...
In...
The..
Car.

It started in 2008 really when they sucked at building CFD. Thats why after the terrible F2009, they rebuilt the wind tunnel. Only to suck just as much. Then they rebuilding it again after 'correlation issuez solvedz' which just turned out to be rubbish.

Its weird. Ferrari started the year 1.5 off pole. By the end of the year they were still 4-8 tenths off in quali. In the race they had great pace, but they were never faster than Mclaren or Redbull. The cars updates basically stopped in June; everything else either made the car worse or gave zilch in improvement.

Theyve been using the Toyota tunnel for a while too; Ferrari invested heavily in their on track testing, real life simulations. Their schumacher dominance has now become theyre post 2005 hinderance because their failure to invest in CFD from an early date, like other teams were using (especially renault) has cost them year after year. If you think, no disrespect to Kimi; 2007 was their last championship. But they did truly only win because Mclaren do what they do best; f*** up, not manage drivers right and make mistakes. it would be 78 years between Ferrari's 2004 championship and nothing in 2012. Mclaren are even worse; 1 championship in what, 13 years now? Ferrari's problem is the car, Mclarens problem is the team/unreliability. 2012 stunk even worse than 2005, and It wasn't Newey this time. 2010 was lewis' fault but 2007, 2012, 2009 were mclarens.

Question is, who is going to beat Redbull? Like you said, it hardly took vettel any time to get into the top 8. Yeah he had 5 cars backing him up and giving him places, and its still hilarious that under the safety, Vergne crossed the line an astonishing 19.2 seconds behind vettel

Kovalainens times in the race were quite impressive too.

[phil1993]

Ferrari's car was just as good in the races as Red Bull and McLaren (or maybe a little slower) by the end of the season.

The problem was in qualifying. The F2012 had a chronic problem when the DRS went from open closed, because it gave the drivers a lot of rear end instability under braking - look how Alonso's two poles were achieved... in the wet, with no DRS. In the races, where DRS isn't used as much, the car was much better. Theoretically the new rules with DRS should help them, because it was an Achilles heel in 2012.

This is what Gary Anderson thinks anyway: "As the car goes faster, the rear gets closer to the ground and that 'stalls' the diffuser, which is the underfloor which curves upwards at the back of the car. 'Stalling' means the airflow is not attached to it any more, and that reduces the downforce it produces. When the driver brakes for the next corner, the car changes attitude - the rear comes up. I am 99.99% sure that at that time, on the Ferrari, the diffuser does not re-attach immediately. Because of that, the airflow at the back of the car is different, so the rear wing does not re-attach either. So on initial corner entry, 18 or 20 times a lap in qualifying or whatever, the rear of the car has less downforce and therefore is unstable for a given amount of time until the diffuser and rear wing re-attach. This rear instability on corner entry is what the Ferrari drivers are complaining about. To reduce rear instability, you run less front downforce, but that gives understeer - less front grip - when the diffuser re-attaches. As it happens, less front wing also means less overall downforce".

It seems logical, because there's no way you can say the F2012 has sucked in the races, except for the first flyaways and Hungary.

[mikhailv]

The ferrari from about Spain, was great in the races. It was bahrain and China which hurt the most. They were the worst race finishes which says something.

The car was just never as planted in the corners like the Mclaren at certain races and the Redbull in most. Straightline it was supreme, and it had some great traction. Monaco was a brilliant display of tyre conservation and knowing when to push when the tyres were unpredictable.

Yknow, when you think about it, the second half of the season after Belgium, was really boring. Wild tyre strategies, immediate cliff dropping, uncertainty, it was all gone combined with a logical order of Redbull/mclaren/Ferrari/lotus/FI-sauber-williams-mercedes/STR/backmarkers and it became a rinse-repeat job. The tyres really did make the races exciting as there was no status quo which was consistent. It was always going to be Hamilton or vettel for the win; jenson was rubbish in comparison to lewis, Webber was utterly abysmal and Alonso could only rely on failure, accidents and Massa bailing him out in the final two races, except lewis' car was the one who had 90% of the problems unfortunatly.

Either road, from what Ted was saying on sky, Ferrari just couldnt get a diffuser to work with the DRS. Alonso ran the new diffuser in Korea and it took chunks of time off with instability. Same with Texas, he was running new parts and they just werent working.

They were developing the same front wing for 4 races; it wasnt working. The DRS thing will certainly help ferrari next year, but they just need to find a little more grip in slow speed corners. Need more mechanical grip because even in the race, they were still slower than Lewis and webber always seemed to have no KERS every race.

[phil1993]

Last part of the season I thought was good - Abu Dhabi, USA, Brazil were very good. Only Korea and India was really dull... Sometimes having too much crazy is a bad thing. I really enjoyed Austin - a proper battle between two top drivers. It's a bit of a shame DRS made it so easy...

With Red Bull, they had the best car at certain races, but it wasn't until the second half of the season when it really suited Vettel. It's discussed in Mark Hughes's column in Autosport, but basically the ban on the off throttle blowing hurt Vettel because of his driving style - he didn't like the exhaust system. It took them a while to get it to Vettel's liking, hence why Webber had the upper hand for much of the early part of the year.

You think of all of the greats in history - if they lose something, it really affects driving style and it can be hard to adapt. But eventually, they do...

But going back to Ferrari, their other problem was being too conservative once the car became competitive. In Monaco they should have kept Alonso out longer, in Montreal they just took the completely wrong strategy and didn't switch like Red Bull did. Britain too, they had an inferior strategy. It's why I find it difficult to believe Alonso saying how brilliant his team was in 2012 - he won three races, but had Ferrari ignored the relative strength of their car and mastered the strategy, it should have been 5 (Monaco, Britain) and maybe 6 or 7 (Spain, Canada). Certainly more points anyway.

[F1EA]

It's not a matter of the car "sucking"; it's more that because they had to go so far, in order to basically reach Q3 (because of what you said about the downforce balance); their race pace, as good as it could have been, was already compromised.

The RB and Mclaren had superior Q pace and at the same time similar, and at times better, race pace. They were better cars.

Mclaren's season was a major upset though, they would have walked it; (i'm bad with trivia) but i'm thinking their amount of pts lost by either reliability or mistakes must be up there with the all time records.

Ferrari were lucky Mclaren had all this stuff going on to keep in the fight. Yes, Ferrari were solid on race day; but even then, a faster car (Mclaren) with their countless problems almost beat them. It took them THAT many problems to allow a worse car to beat them; and like Mikhaliv said above, they won 2007 because Mclaren had their "issues". And RB were far from perfect and still rammed up the pts.

No discredit to Vettel though. It applies to everyone... these guys are all so good (specially the top guys), their real difference matters much less than the car's performance. (Obviously, once they get the car working for them).

I always found it weird that they allowed free use of DRS during Q... But yea, now that it's getting eliminated, and it seems the teams' performances are converging, MAYBE it'll be a closer season and strategy/mistakes/driver etc will decide the outcome.

I hope so, because the whole argument about the car is unpleasant. It's still the nature of F1, but the fans kinda have a hard time dealing with it, and even teams react differently to WCC vs WDC. Yet in the end, no one can really say Alonso "deserves it" because it is the nature of the sport. Many drivers have deserved it as well before, and still were crushed.

[mikhailv]

Last part of the season I thought was good - Abu Dhabi, USA, Brazil were very good. Only Korea and India was really dull... Sometimes having too much crazy is a bad thing. I really enjoyed Austin - a proper battle between two top drivers. It's a bit of a shame DRS made it so easy...

With Red Bull, they had the best car at certain races, but it wasn't until the second half of the season when it really suited Vettel. It's discussed in Mark Hughes's column in Autosport, but basically the ban on the off throttle blowing hurt Vettel because of his driving style - he didn't like the exhaust system. It took them a while to get it to Vettel's liking, hence why Webber had the upper hand for much of the early part of the year.

You think of all of the greats in history - if they lose something, it really affects driving style and it can be hard to adapt. But eventually, they do...

But going back to Ferrari, their other problem was being too conservative once the car became competitive. In Monaco they should have kept Alonso out longer, in Montreal they just took the completely wrong strategy and didn't switch like Red Bull did. Britain too, they had an inferior strategy. It's why I find it difficult to believe Alonso saying how brilliant his team was in 2012 - he won three races, but had Ferrari ignored the relative strength of their car and mastered the strategy, it should have been 5 (Monaco, Britain) and maybe 6 or 7 (Spain, Canada). Certainly more points anyway.

Austin was superb; DRS wasnt truly needed in a sense. India was ok in the battle for 2nd and 3rd, otherwise it was run of the mill. Brazil was a great race but I still find it spoiled by Vettel having 4 team mates. I dont mind team orders, but Ferrari never requested Perez to not overtake Alonso in Monza, and thats where to me the line is drawn.

It was Valencia when they introduced something like the exhaust blowing again. I firmly remember 2010 with Webber matching vettel easily when there was no EBD, but when it was introduced at the end of the year, webber slipped back. I remember an article in which he says that he doesnt like EBD because it doesnt feel natural. His instincts are telling him the car cant do this speed or that speed through a corner so he just doesnt get along with it whereas Vettel loves it. At the beginning of the year, the first 7 races I would say that Webber was actually better than Sebastien, he had similar pace and had the measure of him.

I think with Ferrari, they never lost Alonso a win, they couldve got him a win like you said, Monaco and Silverstone. He couldve had 2nd Monza had it not been for Damage, maybe even the win, but their actions never lost him the lead from a race through error or retirement. Canada he couldve won but he stayed out too long on tyres, him and Vettel made the same mistake.

And the crazy really, wasnt crazy. it was more of an equalisation. I mean, the top 6 drivers? Alonso, Button, hamilton, Webber, Vettel and Raikkonen. Just as you expect. It was just that they were winning race after race, podiums had different drivers. It wasnt like a force india bagging a win, Sauber getting poles.

Mclaren were the biggest loser this year. Cost hamilton over 100 points alone, ontop of the 15 he lost through over fighting, he wouldve won by a large margin and i dare say, Hulkenberg wouldnt have tried his do or die move and take out the championship leader.

I dread what Mclaren will be like next year. Jenson I believe is not a team leader material. I dont believe he posses the natural driving ability of what lewis produced. Jenson cant fight through problems, he cant drive around them. Hes loved in the team, he gives great direction, but he doesnt have the talent behind the wheel that Alonso, Hammy, vettel or Kimi have. I could never put jenson into that league of 4. I still say 2009 was a great year for him, but when the car ceased its development, he fell back behind Rubens IMO. his weakness is his lack of ability when things dont suit him. He doesnt have the adaptability.

But theyve also got Sergio Perez who to me, isnt impressive either. Mclaren have shot both feet and took a step backward. In my brutal opinion, they wont be in the title fight next year. Ill see Jenson winning a race or two. Sergio might get one. But I cant see neither mounting a consistent challenge because I dont see either of those drivers as capable as the other 4 mentioned.

[donald29]

Obviously there are mind games going on, but Christian Horner is right when he says McLaren will be less of a threat without Lewis. You're spot on about McLaren mikhailv. Red Bull and Alonso must be laughing.

[mikhailv]

Obviously there are mind games going on, but Christian Horner is right when he says McLaren will be less of a threat without Lewis. You're spot on about McLaren mikhailv. Red Bull and Alonso must be laughing.

Mercedes really could be a wildcard next year. Didnt Brawn confirm that they have revolution next year, a whole new design philosphy which will be preperation for 2014?

This is going to be my worry. How many teams will write off next year as a transition year for 2014? I cant see Mclaren mounting a challenge. Unless ferrari pull something out of the bag/wind tunnel, I cant see them matching RedBull. Similarly, unless Mercedes hit a sweet spot, I cant see them mounting a WDC challenge either.

I can only see it being Alonso vs Vettel next year. Ill take the risk in writting Mclaren and Mercedes off. Im not even considering Lotus. Raikkonen is being wasted in that team. The incompetance of Lotus has been astounding this year. DDRS, yeah we'll introduce it next race. They said that for 5 MONTHS. And they NEVER used it. It took them what, 16 or 17 races just to use the bleeding coanada exhausts!? Imagine what the hell that car wouldve been like if the imbecile Eric took the decisive decision with some b*** to scrap DDRS immediately and focus on the exhausts which, if utilised right were GUARANTEED to add heaps of performance to that car. it was a clear step in Abu dhabi. Think of its use at other tracks if they actually did things right. The whole year Grosjean and the team let themselves down. yeah, kimi shouldve had more b*** in overtaking Vettel who left a bus-sized gap at Bahrain and shouldve nailed Alonso miles sooner in Hungary (still faultless), but look what Lotus cost themself. Then again, they Blamed heidfeld for an exploding car. Enough said about that bunch of idiots. To think that they have the team personel who tirelessly worked and reaped the benefits of being the 2005 and 2006 champions. such a shame.

[reppo]

And the jack-in-the-box has again popped out of the box to have speeches and do handwaving:
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2012/11/26/m ... -car-race/

Montezemolo wants ‘a winning car from round one’
2012 F1 season
November 26, 2012 at 6:03 pm by Keith Collantine
79 comments

Luca di Montezemolo, Ferrari, Monza, 2012Ferrari president Luca di Montezemolo demanded improvements at the team over the winter after Fernando Alonso failed to win the drivers’ championship in Brazil.

“What happened this year stems what happened the previous year,” said Montezemolo. “On this topic, I will be asking for an in-depth analysis and an improvement in the organisation and work methods, because next year, we want to have a winning car right from the first race, which has not been the case these last two years.”

“Certainly not winning the title is the cause for great sorrow and great regret,” he added, “because we always want to win and we came close.”

“I am proud of the work done by the team in having produced the most reliable car, for never having got the strategy wrong and for making no mistakes at the pit stops. Right to the end, the team did its duty.

“Even if we are the team that scored the most points in the last five races, even if I was pleased to see our two drivers on the podium yesterday, we lacked a car quick enough to get us to the front of the grid and that was the main problem we had all season.”

Montezemolo said Alonso “will react like the whole team” to the loss of the championship.

“The team is working to achieve what I have asked of them, which is to have a car that is quick out of the box and immediately competitive. Fernando will react in his way, pushing even harder, aware that he will be unbeatable in a competitive car.

“As for the car, Fernando is partly right, on condition that, in 2013, we maintain this amazing reliability that has allowed us to come second in the Drivers’ and Constructors’ championships. However, he’s right that we need a quicker car.”

Every year same words and no action. It has been since 2008 when they last time won CWC and still they have problems to be competitive through whole year. Even when they started building next years car at summer 2009 they lost CWC by about 100 points in year 2010. While Team Enstone changed two testing days to full size wind tunnel tests and flew their car to US to get calibration data for their own wind tunnel, Ferrari kept using their flawed tunnel like nothing. It should not be too hard to hire an outside specialist to scrutinize their quality control and working methods. Until that even Fernando's samurai quotes won't help.

[phil1993]

Even if Merc deliver a dog, it should enhance Lewis's reputation - only have to see how Alonso fared in Renault and Ferrari.

"We want a winning car from Round 1"

Well, no s*** Sherlock.

[mikhailv]

Exactly. I think lewis needs an R29 season. The MP4-24 wasnt a great car, but it was still 3rd or 4th track dependant with Ferrari and the odd shinning chance for Toyota.

He needs a season where he cant even score a point, top 10 finishes are rare. I think that would tidy up his overtaking and defending and hopefully give him that lack of forethought and knowing when to give in thats missing.

[phil1993]

Lewis is already one of the best racers out there, he just had an awful 2011 season in that aspect.

And yeah, 2009 was peculiar. McLaren sucked at downforce tracks - Silverstone they were just terrible. Toyota locked out the front row in Bahrain and then the back row in Monaco. BMW too - very good in Brazil but rubbish for most of the year!

[F1EA]

Agree. Lewis needs a season where each & every point is sacred. He needs to realize that there are sone battles not worth fighting. Examples: vs Maldonado, Hulkenberg and vs pretty much everyone in Korea. On the other end you have guys like Kimi and Alonso who weight their fights and not let themselves get caught up by the moment.....

/opinion

[mikhailv]

Lewis is already one of the best racers out there, he just had an awful 2011 season in that aspect.

And yeah, 2009 was peculiar. McLaren sucked at downforce tracks - Silverstone they were just terrible. Toyota locked out the front row in Bahrain and then the back row in Monaco. BMW too - very good in Brazil but rubbish for most of the year!

Deffinitely. But he still needs some tidying up. Like F1EA said above, its the precision and the thinking forward he needs. Maldanado wasnt his fault, but he couldve put himself out that situation. Brazil, totally innocent, but I cant help but think Alonso or Kimi wouldve just took to the escape road ahead, lost the lead and anticipate a move by Hulk, because unfortunatly, lewis got boxed by the Caterham ahead and was took out. Lewis was faultless dont get me wrong, but its little things like 'right, take 13 points over a DNF'. Thats what ruins his own consistency in the cockpit, his tendancy for things like that. He can drive around problems, he can find speed only one other can out of a car.

He does that, then theres nothing to seperate him and Alonso. Pure equals.

[megasyxx]

Lewis needs a season where each & every point is sacred. He needs to realize that there are some battles not worth fighting.

Spot on. Considering today's scoring system is up to tenth place, having a handful of points is way better than having none at all. Plus a dnf not only kills you points wise, it gets into your head one way or another.