Formula 1 Gran Premio Santander D'Italia 2012

Who will win the Italian Grand Prix?

Fernando Alonso
5
12%
Sebastian Vettel
1
2%
Mark Webber
0
No votes
Kimi Raikkonen
5
12%
Lewis Hamilton
21
49%
Jenson Button
3
7%
Nico Rosberg
1
2%
Sergio Perez
1
2%
Michael Schumacher
3
7%
Felipe Massa
2
5%
Jerome d'Ambrosio
1
2%
Other
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 43

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phil1993
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Re: Formula 1 Gran Premio Santander D'Italia 2012

Post by phil1993 » 11 Sep 2012, 10:40

mikhailv wrote:I agree, Daniel Abt and Mitch Evans were surpreme in GP3. But Tio Elias, that last race, made me sit up and think 'that was a damn good performance'. So maybe another year in GP3 for him and then move to GP2,could be one to watch. Similarly to Da Costa.

But most deffinitely Abt and Mitch deserve to move up.
Antonio Felix Da Costa for me as well has a lot of potential, while Vainio is good too. The top four all stand a strong chance of getting to Formula One.

I agree, Ellinas could do with another season but he's matured massively over the second part of the season, which is good to see.

@Edi, I agree. It's always a danger for young drivers when choosing plans for next year. Evans has no choice really, he can't do another season so it's FR3.5 or GP2. But for the top 5 there's that issue of whether you do another year and go for the title, or risk another year and having a disappointing season and dropping off of the radar. Equally, for someone like Abt, he's still only nineteen so he needs to make sure he doesn't rush through, end up as a very young driver in GP2 and get all lost at sea.

You've seen this season in GP2 - top rookie is 23 year old James Calado, who has a lot of experience in other series. In modern GP2, it's extremely hard to come in and make a decent impression.

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Re: Formula 1 Gran Premio Santander D'Italia 2012

Post by mikhailv » 11 Sep 2012, 10:54

Available spaces is the problem.

I mean where do drivers in GP2 go to make way for GP3 members? I mean, F1 theres what, 8 seats truly available? Both STRs, both Marussias, Both HRTs and both Caterhams. Im pretty sure that Massa, Perez, Kobayashi, Di resta, Hulk and Senna will be on the grid next year. So basically, Ferrari/mclaren/Lotus/RB/Mercedes are all taken up. I cant see F1 losing Kovalainen, but I can see glock leaving.

The problem is, would GP2 drivers really want to goto such lower teams? STR is a death knell for anybody that isnt Vettel. Caterham/Marussia/HRT are just career suicide. D'ambrosio wasnt bad at Marussia, but ive seen people calling him for his race in Monza which is highly unfair. I mean, I cant imagine Charles Pic being chosen by a better team when to be honest, he deserves a much better shot.

What GP2 driver is going to leave GP2 for a totally bottom team with no hope?

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Re: Formula 1 Gran Premio Santander D'Italia 2012

Post by phil1993 » 11 Sep 2012, 11:00

Senna will be replaced by Bottas, while I understand Max Chilton will be at Marussia as Pic is likely Sauber-bound.

There are some average drivers in this GP2 field though, ones that I think have reached their maximum level or even exceeded it. Certainly not F1 quality.

But yes, that is the sticking point. There are only really 8 F1 teams. STR is Red Bull's junior and locked out (which I'm not keen on), while the bottom three teams are still another season away from making it into the midfield.

However, I maintain that the top talent usually makes it. Very few naturally talented drivers drop off the radar.

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Re: Formula 1 Gran Premio Santander D'Italia 2012

Post by Edi96 » 11 Sep 2012, 11:12

I don't think that Sauber will sign Pic. If Perez leaves they need Gutierrez to keep Telmex. If Kobayashi has to go and Perez stays, they are more likely to sign Bianchi because Ferrari is very supportive of him.
Replacing both drivers is always a risk as you lose your benchmark. Peter Sauber wasn't to happy about this in 2010, that's why they signed Heidfeld for the last few races.

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Re: Formula 1 Gran Premio Santander D'Italia 2012

Post by François » 11 Sep 2012, 11:16

According to french TV, Pic is staying at Marussia for 2013 then moving to Caterham (Renault engines being the key) in 2014. They didn't mention Sauber at all.
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Re: Formula 1 Gran Premio Santander D'Italia 2012

Post by mikhailv » 11 Sep 2012, 11:22

phil1993 wrote:Senna will be replaced by Bottas, while I understand Max Chilton will be at Marussia as Pic is likely Sauber-bound.

There are some average drivers in this GP2 field though, ones that I think have reached their maximum level or even exceeded it. Certainly not F1 quality.

But yes, that is the sticking point. There are only really 8 F1 teams. STR is Red Bull's junior and locked out (which I'm not keen on), while the bottom three teams are still another season away from making it into the midfield.

However, I maintain that the top talent usually makes it. Very few naturally talented drivers drop off the radar.
I understand Bottas is replacing Senna, but I cant see Senna's name disappearing. If Pic goes to Sauber, who is he replacing? I really dont know if Sergio will be at Ferrari. I cant see them ditching Kobayashi he is just as good as Sergio IMO, just for some reason he is either off the pace when Perez is on it, but when Perez isnt on it Kamui is and the car just isn't that good. Its like, Perez shines when Kobayashi fails and is on an alternate strategy, but when Kobayashi is outperforming the car always seems to be behind FI and Williams. Spa, I think, wouldve been Kobayashi's shining chance this year, he was on it. Stupid Grosjean.

STR is up for sale, no? That team has been a fail from the start. yeah, Vettel went there but he impressed with BMW-Sauber first and wouldve been in F1 one way or another. I honestly think the grid wouldnt miss the bottom 4 teams. It would miss the number of cars I mean, but the actual teams..... nobody would miss.

And GP2 has been pretty amateur this year. I mean Valsecchi and Razia naturally has been good. Everytime I hear 'Ceccoto' my ears perk up only because of his dads toleman/minardi/march days.

Otherwise, theres some good drivers, but just, seem like amateur hour. Jollyon Palmer I keep an eye being british but, I dont get much of an impression as of yet. Giedo has been in GP2 what, 3-4 years now! Im surprised he hasnt been picked up even if its just midfield. Hegenuinely isnt too bad.

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Re: Formula 1 Gran Premio Santander D'Italia 2012

Post by donald29 » 11 Sep 2012, 11:34

I still wonder if Senna will be Massa's replacement with Brazil being a big market for Fiat and his Santander sponsorship.

The one in GP2 that I think is one to watch is Calado. Valsecchi and Razia have been in GP2 for a long time, have done several seasons, Calado is in his first and is P3 in the championship. I know some people disagree, but I think having quick success in GP2 rather than success after a few seasons is more impressive and a sign of talent.

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Re: Formula 1 Gran Premio Santander D'Italia 2012

Post by mikhailv » 11 Sep 2012, 11:56

[quote="donald29"]I still wonder if Senna will be Massa's replacement with Brazil being a big market for Fiat and his Santander sponsorship.

The one in GP2 that I think is one to watch is Calado. Valsecchi and Razia have been in GP2 for a long time, have done several seasons, Calado is in his first and is P3 in the championship. I know some people disagree, but I think having quick success in GP2 rather than success after a few seasons is more impressive and a sign of talent.[/quote]

I do agree to an extent, but I dont think teams look for that. Sponsorship, target market and sales are what many teams look for now.

I mean, sometimes success over time is just as good as it is a time-measurable feature. Immediate success isnt a future guarantee. Piquet was supreme in GP2, and on par with Hamilton but was rubbish in F1.Not all briatores fault. Similar with Di Resta; he beat Vettel right? Nobody picked him up though.

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Re: Formula 1 Gran Premio Santander D'Italia 2012

Post by phil1993 » 11 Sep 2012, 12:12

Of course teams look for sponsorship. They always have, even during the manufacturer era. But now, as opposed to years gone by, a lot of companies are sponsoring the talented racing drivers.

We can all joke about PDVSA sponsoring Pastor, but he is a very quick racing driver.

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Re: Formula 1 Gran Premio Santander D'Italia 2012

Post by dacer » 11 Sep 2012, 12:24

that issues are related to Monza GP, or general discussion about f1?. Please, use correct topic.

thanks

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Re: Formula 1 Gran Premio Santander D'Italia 2012

Post by mikhailv » 11 Sep 2012, 12:29

phil1993 wrote:Of course teams look for sponsorship. They always have, even during the manufacturer era. But now, as opposed to years gone by, a lot of companies are sponsoring the talented racing drivers.

We can all joke about PDVSA sponsoring Pastor, but he is a very quick racing driver.
I think he can win more races. I dont believe half the penalties he has had are just. I mean, the one on Di Resta was an utter joke at Hungary. We've seen kobayashi going up the inside and giving a love tap to another car, Maldanado only gave Di Resta a love tap, there was no damage or marks at all, Di resta over reacted and jinked. A track where overtaking is very hard, youve got to risk sending it up the inside. It wasnt dangerous, it wasnt a silly move, it wasnt over aggressive. Ambitious yes, but not penalty deservant.

Stupid things like purposely driving into Hamilton/Perez shouldve warranted points on his licence ala BTCC, wouldve been good for Grosjean too. Race ban just seems..... abit over the top. But say they give 2 points each severe incident, 6 points max before you get a 3 race ban. Wouldve been a great way to teach Pastor; do it again, your out for 3 races. Bottas comes in,better than Malda and Senna, Senna scores points and then williams are scratching their heads as to whether 29million is worth it. Might at least put the fear of losing his seat, regardless of Money.

But Maldanado to me is the same as montoya, its just when Montoya did his moves, everyone was afraid and it was uncommon, Maldanado's aggression is met with agressive defence. Thats the difference between now and 2003 for example. The field is alot more talented and alive with young blood who wont budge an inch.

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Re: Formula 1 Gran Premio Santander D'Italia 2012

Post by SpliT » 11 Sep 2012, 12:30

mikhailv wrote:D'ambrosio wasnt bad at Marussia, but ive seen people calling him for his race in Monza which is highly unfair.
He had some problems in qualifying and in the race. His KERS failed on lap 8. It is highly unfair to judge him by one race.

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Re: Formula 1 Gran Premio Santander D'Italia 2012

Post by mikhailv » 11 Sep 2012, 12:30

dacer wrote:that issues are related to Monza GP, or general discussion about f1?. Please, use correct topic.

thanks
We're talking about the rumors from the Monza paddock regarding drivers for next year and what influences/affect themarket, and the drivers from the series GP3 which ended in Monza,and the final race of GP2 in Singapore which also affect the market.

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Re: Formula 1 Gran Premio Santander D'Italia 2012

Post by mikhailv » 11 Sep 2012, 12:31

SpliT wrote:
mikhailv wrote:D'ambrosio wasnt bad at Marussia, but ive seen people calling him for his race in Monza which is highly unfair.
He had some problems in qualifying and in the race. His KERS failed on lap 8. It is highly unfair to judge him by one race.
Agreed.

I mean he hasnt driven this season, or had very little millage at all, Its like dumping Fisico into the F60 and expecting him to win the race in his single chance. its totally ridiculous.

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Re: Formula 1 Gran Premio Santander D'Italia 2012

Post by donald29 » 11 Sep 2012, 12:39

phil1993 wrote:We can all joke about PDVSA sponsoring Pastor, but he is a very quick racing driver.
The Venezuelan driver that really gets me is Gonzalez. He's 26, in his third or fourth season of GP2 but still rarely finishes in the points. I think once this season. On top of that every weekend he crashes or is involved in some sort of incident. He quite clearly is not good enough, yet he's getting to do F1 tests as the sponsors cough up the money. Perfect example of why state sponsorship is bad. Bad results don't go unpunished, he continues to have the money to pay for drives.

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