Team Orders

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phil1993
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Re: Team Orders

Post by phil1993 » 29 Mar 2013, 16:02

Everyone's missing the main point here.

Irrespective of the Vettel-Webber issue, the more important fact is that Vettel has undermined Horner.

Team principals don't hold Horner with huge respect. Part of that is the dominance, part of that is because he's in Bernie's pocket, but part of that is because he is weak. This latest issue undermines him further and weakens Red Bull's position in political discussions.

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Re: Team Orders

Post by mnmracer » 29 Mar 2013, 16:20

phil1993 wrote:Everyone's missing the main point here.

Irrespective of the Vettel-Webber issue, the more important fact is that Vettel has undermined Horner.

Team principals don't hold Horner with huge respect. Part of that is the dominance, part of that is because he's in Bernie's pocket, but part of that is because he is weak. This latest issue undermines him further and weakens Red Bull's position in political discussions.

But why does this suddenly look bad on Horner, and not the three times Mark has undermined him (regardless of what you think of his actions towards Seb)?

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Re: Team Orders

Post by phil1993 » 29 Mar 2013, 16:25

Because it's a hell of a lot more public this time. It's pretty much the straw that broke the camel's back. It's been rumbling on, but this is the thing that's suddenly broken it. It's showing that the Red Bull way isn't working. Sing when you're winning but sinning when you're not so to speak.

Also, the political situation is at a very precarious point. There's no Concorde Agreement (still) and the budget cap has yet to be agreed. If a team principal can't control his 25 year old driver, why should the other team principals take him seriously? If you have Helmut Marko slagging off Mark Webber in an in-house magazine, then why take Horner seriously? Who's in control at that team? Moreover, assuming Horner is the leak to Bernie then others are going to be very, very wary.

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Re: Team Orders

Post by tderias » 29 Mar 2013, 21:00

phil1993 wrote:Everyone's missing the main point here.

Irrespective of the Vettel-Webber issue, the more important fact is that Vettel has undermined Horner.

Team principals don't hold Horner with huge respect. Part of that is the dominance, part of that is because he's in Bernie's pocket, but part of that is because he is weak. This latest issue undermines him further and weakens Red Bull's position in political discussions.


Gotta disagree on that being the main point. The main point is what Sebastian has done and how that has affected the F1 community's perspective towards him. With Horner, Marko, and Mateschitz in the picture, it was always vague who's really in charge. And then we hear Seb saying 'Mark is too slow, get him outta the way', and you get the feeling that he's running the RB show...

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Re: Team Orders

Post by mikhailv » 29 Mar 2013, 21:18



Id like to just post this video of Silverstone 2011.

at points 14 seconds, 18 seconds, 23 seconds and 36 seconds. Webber couldve overtook Vettel with ease. But he backs off.

People say Webber was disobeying team orders. He wasn't. He was clearly showing he could have Vettel but is being told not to. He was making a point. Vettel should've just done what Webber did. Show the places he could easily have Webber but making the point 'you've got this one. but I was faster today'. soothes the ego and makes the point. Doesnt matter who you are; you follow team orders. Whats most telling, Is that vettel is telling the team what to do with Webber in Silverstone. Clearly, Vettel is in charge of the management. he is bigger than the team.

On a side note, some fun team orders videos. Doesnt matter who you are, you work for the team. No driver, is bigger than the team;

Massa gets pitted early so Kimi can lead (Brazil 2007)
No video found

Kimi lets massa by Shanghai 2008;


Grosjean waves kimi through;


Schumacher lets irvine past and blocks Hakkinen (50 seconds onwards) Malaysia 1999


Alonso waves Fisichella through Indy 2006;


Massa lets Heidfeld pass (Germany 2002)


Ralf told to hold station Spa 1998


Kovalainen told to let lewis pass (germany 2008)
No Video

Heidfeld told to let Kubica pass (Canada 2008)


Cant remember the race, but Barrichello was told to let Button pass/hold station.

But yeah. It doesnt matter who you are above; you work for the team. You benefit and get disadvantaged by team orders at some point of your career.

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Re: Team Orders

Post by phil1993 » 30 Mar 2013, 11:22

Webber didn't pass because Sebastian defended.

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Re: Team Orders

Post by mikhailv » 30 Mar 2013, 11:28

phil1993 wrote:Webber didn't pass because Sebastian defended.


Just watched The F1 show. Roebuck shares my opinion. They analysed it, and Webber couldve had Seb easily. Same as in malaysia, he lets Vettel pass.

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Re: Team Orders

Post by phil1993 » 30 Mar 2013, 11:48

Ah, Roebuck has spoken. Therefore it is the gospel.

Anyway, that particular order was 'maintain the gap, which he evidently ignored.

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Re: Team Orders

Post by phil1993 » 30 Mar 2013, 11:52

tderias wrote:
phil1993 wrote:Everyone's missing the main point here.

Irrespective of the Vettel-Webber issue, the more important fact is that Vettel has undermined Horner.

Team principals don't hold Horner with huge respect. Part of that is the dominance, part of that is because he's in Bernie's pocket, but part of that is because he is weak. This latest issue undermines him further and weakens Red Bull's position in political discussions.


Gotta disagree on that being the main point. The main point is what Sebastian has done and how that has affected the F1 community's perspective towards him. With Horner, Marko, and Mateschitz in the picture, it was always vague who's really in charge. And then we hear Seb saying 'Mark is too slow, get him outta the way', and you get the feeling that he's running the RB show...


The F1 community's perspective on Vettel won't change too much. A lot already rate Alonso and Hamilton as superior. This merely adds to their ammunition.

It has hugely weakened Horner's position. He is not in charge. Who is?

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Re: Team Orders

Post by Joey Zyla » 30 Mar 2013, 11:57

phil1993 wrote:
tderias wrote:
phil1993 wrote:Everyone's missing the main point here.

Irrespective of the Vettel-Webber issue, the more important fact is that Vettel has undermined Horner.

Team principals don't hold Horner with huge respect. Part of that is the dominance, part of that is because he's in Bernie's pocket, but part of that is because he is weak. This latest issue undermines him further and weakens Red Bull's position in political discussions.


Gotta disagree on that being the main point. The main point is what Sebastian has done and how that has affected the F1 community's perspective towards him. With Horner, Marko, and Mateschitz in the picture, it was always vague who's really in charge. And then we hear Seb saying 'Mark is too slow, get him outta the way', and you get the feeling that he's running the RB show...


The F1 community's perspective on Vettel won't change too much. A lot already rate Alonso and Hamilton as superior. This merely adds to their ammunition.

It has hugely weakened Horner's position. He is not in charge. Who is?

Christian Horner.

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Re: Team Orders

Post by phil1993 » 30 Mar 2013, 11:58

Is he though?

He's just one of many senior figures. Newey has a lot of power. Hell, Marko regularly slates one driver and did so in an in-house magazine! Imagine the Horse Whisperer criticising Massa? It would never happen.

The reality is that Red Bull took an impressive 1-2, 43 points and showed us that the RB9 is undoubtedly the best car. But all we're discussing is the breakdown within the team. This will have ramifications for 2014 and beyond.

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Re: Team Orders

Post by mikhailv » 30 Mar 2013, 12:08

phil1993 wrote:Ah, Roebuck has spoken. Therefore it is the gospel.

Anyway, that particular order was 'maintain the gap, which he evidently ignored.


Ah. Phil has spoken. Therefore its gospel :roll::

You can easily see he backs out of it. He stays behind Vettel. Showing he could have him but is letting him have this one under team orders. Vettel should've made the point as well in Malaysia.

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Re: Team Orders

Post by phil1993 » 30 Mar 2013, 12:15

Well, my main point is with Horner's weakness. I'm not sure what he does as team principal if he does not lead the team.

Back in 2007, Ron Dennis showed in no uncertain terms who was in charge. When Hamilton disobeyed the team in Hungary they had a rather colourful exchange. Alonso also threatened the team, they called his bluff and it was him who left to the initial detriment of his career.

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Re: Team Orders

Post by Joey Zyla » 30 Mar 2013, 12:16

phil1993 wrote:Is he though?

He's just one of many senior figures. Newey has a lot of power. Hell, Marko regularly slates one driver and did so in an in-house magazine! Imagine the Horse Whisperer criticising Massa? It would never happen.

The reality is that Red Bull took an impressive 1-2, 43 points and showed us that the RB9 is undoubtedly the best car. But all we're discussing is the breakdown within the team. This will have ramifications for 2014 and beyond.

That could be said of almost any team.

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Re: Team Orders

Post by phil1993 » 30 Mar 2013, 12:23

Not really.

Whitmarsh runs McLaren, Dennis operates the road car section. Domenicali runs Ferrari, di Montezemolo drops by occasionally. Boullier runs Lotus, Lopez is in the background. The only other one where this situation is nearing is Mercedes with Brawn and Lauda already disagreeing.

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