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 Post subject: Re: Team Orders
PostPosted: 27 Mar 2013, 08:33  
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Ether wrote:
I think team orders on both driver and both teams (Red Bull and Mercedes) are correct. They both ordered to all drivers to Multi 21, or HOLD POSITION. Why? whether or not discussing about who is number one, I believe every teams had their own concern.. Red Bull was Pirelli Tyres concern, meanwhile Mercedes was more about Fuel insufficient on Hamilton, and also probably Pirelli Tyres.

Letting Rosberg pass in order, also means TEAM ORDERS, it doesn't reflect anything what we wanted, RACING. We saw some racing between Hamilton and Button in Mclaren, that was RACING, no team orders (maybe in some GP there was team orders). So if we hope to see Rosberg passing Hamilton, that wouldn't be for free too though, as we said, racing... IF Hamilton racing Rosberg in terms of defending on straight finish line, it would have consumed more and more fuel, which means, Rosberg podium might cost 12 worthy points of Hamilton didn't finish the race. I exceptionally could respect Mercedes call on team order this time.

In Red Bull situation, the situation was a bit different. Even the main situation or concern was more or less the same. Related to reliability issue, and tyre - unknown - situation on degradation. So, interestingly, Red Bulls are accepting Webber should be in front of Vettel because they concern about those situations. This was pretty unusual! We didn't need an Einstein to predict who will finish in front of each other if there were two drivers in front of each other in Red Bull.. We saw it so much in 3 YEARS!
judging any who disobeying team order, Vettel or Webber, okay both are having trouble on team order quite often, especially Webber. Okay, he did disobey pretty much some time ago, but the situation did not "unclear" as to Webber said that he didn't want to stop racing. He wanted to race.. So be prepare - Vettel - !! But in this situation, Vettel was in grudge telling webber to move over by saying he was faster but unfortunately he didn't! and at the final stage, Vettel was in "automatic-mind" after 3 YEARS he felt as a number 1 driver, he just racing Webber! but in terms of nothing to warn to his teammate before the fight! So, I have to say, it was a coward act from Vettel, and pretty much to say, he showed that disrespecting him is particularly reasonable, and now people already start to disrespect him as well.


Im sorry, that's ridiculous. Keeping Rosberg behind because Lewis racing him cost him his fuel? Really? Tough! Mercedes underfueled lewis/lewis didn't fuel manage. That's not Nico's fault. You want racing.....but you think keeping rosberg behind because lewis used too much fuel is right? Make your mind up. Lewis/Mercedes dropped the ball. If lewis ran out of fuel racing Nico, then that's his own fault. he should've just waved his teammate past, Mercedes should've told lewis to let him go instead of crippling BOTH cars.

May aswell just say Formula 1 is motor racing, just don't race your teammate and any team with a ventured interest with a frontrunner should also, not race each other.
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 Post subject: Re: Team Orders
PostPosted: 27 Mar 2013, 08:33  
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mnmracer wrote:
kals wrote:
mikhailv wrote:
Team orders are fine. Its always been in F1.

The grievance for me comes with this; either define your drivers, say theyre equal and then both should respect 'just bring it home' as saying 'look guys, youve raced for 40 odd laps, X driver has done a better job, so bring the cars home as they are'. If they said Webber was 2nd driver, then I'd be happy for Vettel to overtake. Instead, there is a false 'oh the drivers are so equal' PR bulls**.


This :thumbsup:

The problem is though, they didn't let them race for 40 laps.
In lap 24 they told Vettel to hold back "because we're only halfway through the race". Having held back for another 20 laps, and suddenly he's again/still not allowed to fight for the win. That is the biggest problem that was created in Malaysia. Vettel was never given a fair chance.


So, why did Webber pull out 1.4 seconds on Vettel after that radio call? Because he was being told to manage tyres and fuel. Vettel wasn't.
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 Post subject: Re: Team Orders
PostPosted: 27 Mar 2013, 08:42  
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mikhailv wrote:
mnmracer wrote:
kals wrote:
mikhailv wrote:
Team orders are fine. Its always been in F1.

The grievance for me comes with this; either define your drivers, say theyre equal and then both should respect 'just bring it home' as saying 'look guys, youve raced for 40 odd laps, X driver has done a better job, so bring the cars home as they are'. If they said Webber was 2nd driver, then I'd be happy for Vettel to overtake. Instead, there is a false 'oh the drivers are so equal' PR bulls**.


This :thumbsup:

The problem is though, they didn't let them race for 40 laps.
In lap 24 they told Vettel to hold back "because we're only halfway through the race". Having held back for another 20 laps, and suddenly he's again/still not allowed to fight for the win. That is the biggest problem that was created in Malaysia. Vettel was never given a fair chance.


So, why did Webber pull out 1.4 seconds on Vettel after that radio call? Because he was being told to manage tyres and fuel. Vettel wasn't.

So why tell Vettel to stay back if they could have just told Webber to go faster?
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 Post subject: Re: Team Orders
PostPosted: 27 Mar 2013, 08:58  
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mikhailv wrote:
Ether wrote:
I think team orders on both driver and both teams (Red Bull and Mercedes) are correct. They both ordered to all drivers to Multi 21, or HOLD POSITION. Why? whether or not discussing about who is number one, I believe every teams had their own concern.. Red Bull was Pirelli Tyres concern, meanwhile Mercedes was more about Fuel insufficient on Hamilton, and also probably Pirelli Tyres.

Letting Rosberg pass in order, also means TEAM ORDERS, it doesn't reflect anything what we wanted, RACING. We saw some racing between Hamilton and Button in Mclaren, that was RACING, no team orders (maybe in some GP there was team orders). So if we hope to see Rosberg passing Hamilton, that wouldn't be for free too though, as we said, racing... IF Hamilton racing Rosberg in terms of defending on straight finish line, it would have consumed more and more fuel, which means, Rosberg podium might cost 12 worthy points of Hamilton didn't finish the race. I exceptionally could respect Mercedes call on team order this time.

In Red Bull situation, the situation was a bit different. Even the main situation or concern was more or less the same. Related to reliability issue, and tyre - unknown - situation on degradation. So, interestingly, Red Bulls are accepting Webber should be in front of Vettel because they concern about those situations. This was pretty unusual! We didn't need an Einstein to predict who will finish in front of each other if there were two drivers in front of each other in Red Bull.. We saw it so much in 3 YEARS!
judging any who disobeying team order, Vettel or Webber, okay both are having trouble on team order quite often, especially Webber. Okay, he did disobey pretty much some time ago, but the situation did not "unclear" as to Webber said that he didn't want to stop racing. He wanted to race.. So be prepare - Vettel - !! But in this situation, Vettel was in grudge telling webber to move over by saying he was faster but unfortunately he didn't! and at the final stage, Vettel was in "automatic-mind" after 3 YEARS he felt as a number 1 driver, he just racing Webber! but in terms of nothing to warn to his teammate before the fight! So, I have to say, it was a coward act from Vettel, and pretty much to say, he showed that disrespecting him is particularly reasonable, and now people already start to disrespect him as well.


Im sorry, that's ridiculous. Keeping Rosberg behind because Lewis racing him cost him his fuel? Really? Tough! Mercedes underfueled lewis/lewis didn't fuel manage. That's not Nico's fault. You want racing.....but you think keeping rosberg behind because lewis used too much fuel is right? Make your mind up. Lewis/Mercedes dropped the ball. If lewis ran out of fuel racing Nico, then that's his own fault. he should've just waved his teammate past, Mercedes should've told lewis to let him go instead of crippling BOTH cars.

May aswell just say Formula 1 is motor racing, just don't race your teammate and any team with a ventured interest with a frontrunner should also, not race each other.


Yes this was a very strange decision by Mercedes and leaves me wondering if the decision was made because Lewis is the number one driver and Nico number two? It's a team sport and Lewis would only be letting his team mate past, not a real competitor, actually I cannot really understand why Lewis (given his predicament with fuel) didn't just move over and let Nico past anyway? But at least he fezzed up on the podium, unlike the winner...
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 Post subject: Re: Team Orders
PostPosted: 27 Mar 2013, 09:31  
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mnmracer wrote:
mikhailv wrote:
mnmracer wrote:
kals wrote:
mikhailv wrote:
Team orders are fine. Its always been in F1.

The grievance for me comes with this; either define your drivers, say theyre equal and then both should respect 'just bring it home' as saying 'look guys, youve raced for 40 odd laps, X driver has done a better job, so bring the cars home as they are'. If they said Webber was 2nd driver, then I'd be happy for Vettel to overtake. Instead, there is a false 'oh the drivers are so equal' PR bulls**.


This :thumbsup:

The problem is though, they didn't let them race for 40 laps.
In lap 24 they told Vettel to hold back "because we're only halfway through the race". Having held back for another 20 laps, and suddenly he's again/still not allowed to fight for the win. That is the biggest problem that was created in Malaysia. Vettel was never given a fair chance.


So, why did Webber pull out 1.4 seconds on Vettel after that radio call? Because he was being told to manage tyres and fuel. Vettel wasn't.

So why tell Vettel to stay back if they could have just told Webber to go faster?


Because Vettel wasn't faster. So why move him out of the way? Webber picked his pace up and showed he can go faster and just backed off again. There was no threat from Mercedes, Hamilton kept being told to save fuel and tyres whilst Nico was told to just go all out.

Called driving to a delta. Team told webber to save, they told Vettel to save. Vettel ignored.
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 Post subject: Re: Team Orders
PostPosted: 27 Mar 2013, 09:46  
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Gwilo wrote:
mikhailv wrote:
Ether wrote:
I think team orders on both driver and both teams (Red Bull and Mercedes) are correct. They both ordered to all drivers to Multi 21, or HOLD POSITION. Why? whether or not discussing about who is number one, I believe every teams had their own concern.. Red Bull was Pirelli Tyres concern, meanwhile Mercedes was more about Fuel insufficient on Hamilton, and also probably Pirelli Tyres.

Letting Rosberg pass in order, also means TEAM ORDERS, it doesn't reflect anything what we wanted, RACING. We saw some racing between Hamilton and Button in Mclaren, that was RACING, no team orders (maybe in some GP there was team orders). So if we hope to see Rosberg passing Hamilton, that wouldn't be for free too though, as we said, racing... IF Hamilton racing Rosberg in terms of defending on straight finish line, it would have consumed more and more fuel, which means, Rosberg podium might cost 12 worthy points of Hamilton didn't finish the race. I exceptionally could respect Mercedes call on team order this time.

In Red Bull situation, the situation was a bit different. Even the main situation or concern was more or less the same. Related to reliability issue, and tyre - unknown - situation on degradation. So, interestingly, Red Bulls are accepting Webber should be in front of Vettel because they concern about those situations. This was pretty unusual! We didn't need an Einstein to predict who will finish in front of each other if there were two drivers in front of each other in Red Bull.. We saw it so much in 3 YEARS!
judging any who disobeying team order, Vettel or Webber, okay both are having trouble on team order quite often, especially Webber. Okay, he did disobey pretty much some time ago, but the situation did not "unclear" as to Webber said that he didn't want to stop racing. He wanted to race.. So be prepare - Vettel - !! But in this situation, Vettel was in grudge telling webber to move over by saying he was faster but unfortunately he didn't! and at the final stage, Vettel was in "automatic-mind" after 3 YEARS he felt as a number 1 driver, he just racing Webber! but in terms of nothing to warn to his teammate before the fight! So, I have to say, it was a coward act from Vettel, and pretty much to say, he showed that disrespecting him is particularly reasonable, and now people already start to disrespect him as well.


Im sorry, that's ridiculous. Keeping Rosberg behind because Lewis racing him cost him his fuel? Really? Tough! Mercedes underfueled lewis/lewis didn't fuel manage. That's not Nico's fault. You want racing.....but you think keeping rosberg behind because lewis used too much fuel is right? Make your mind up. Lewis/Mercedes dropped the ball. If lewis ran out of fuel racing Nico, then that's his own fault. he should've just waved his teammate past, Mercedes should've told lewis to let him go instead of crippling BOTH cars.

May aswell just say Formula 1 is motor racing, just don't race your teammate and any team with a ventured interest with a frontrunner should also, not race each other.


Yes this was a very strange decision by Mercedes and leaves me wondering if the decision was made because Lewis is the number one driver and Nico number two? It's a team sport and Lewis would only be letting his team mate past, not a real competitor, actually I cannot really understand why Lewis (given his predicament with fuel) didn't just move over and let Nico past anyway? But at least he fezzed up on the podium, unlike the winner...


One could be cynical and ask that, if lewis felt like that, why did he not let nico by in the first place instead of race against nico and use more fuel up? Just let him by. BMW used to do it, notably at Canada 2008 where it cost Heidfeld the win; Heidfeld was on a two stop, Kubica 3 stop, Heidfeld was asked to let Kubica by not to ruin his strategy; he did so.

Teams just need to come out and say 'here is driver number 1, here is driver number 2' and job done, nobody would question decisions, they would just moan about it.

Funny side note, Captain Team Orders/I must be number 1 himself followed team orders in Malaysia 06 and held formation meaning he finished 2nd and Fisichella won. Indianapolis 2006, Alonso let Fisichella by on team orders too;

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 Post subject: Re: Team Orders
PostPosted: 27 Mar 2013, 10:15  
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mikhailv wrote:
mnmracer wrote:
mikhailv wrote:
mnmracer wrote:
The problem is though, they didn't let them race for 40 laps.
In lap 24 they told Vettel to hold back "because we're only halfway through the race". Having held back for another 20 laps, and suddenly he's again/still not allowed to fight for the win. That is the biggest problem that was created in Malaysia. Vettel was never given a fair chance.


So, why did Webber pull out 1.4 seconds on Vettel after that radio call? Because he was being told to manage tyres and fuel. Vettel wasn't.

So why tell Vettel to stay back if they could have just told Webber to go faster?


Because Vettel wasn't faster. So why move him out of the way? Webber picked his pace up and showed he can go faster and just backed off again. There was no threat from Mercedes, Hamilton kept being told to save fuel and tyres whilst Nico was told to just go all out.

Called driving to a delta. Team told webber to save, they told Vettel to save. Vettel ignored.


That's not why I asked.
I asked, why would you ask Vettel to slow down, which meant that he would be overtaken by Hamilton, if you could Webber to go faster.

Scenario 1: "Webber, speed up a bit mate"
result: Webber is 3 seconds ahead of Vettel, Vettel stays well ahead of Hamilton.

Scenario 2: "Sebastian, keep your distance"
result: Webber is 1.5 seconds ahead of Vettel, Vettel is falling into the clutches of Hamilton and is later almost overtaken by Rosberg.

Why would you go for scenario 2?
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 Post subject: Re: Team Orders
PostPosted: 27 Mar 2013, 11:38  
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Yes, Id go for option 2. Because Hamilton getting by Vettel is a different thing.

Webber wasn't told to speed up. So either Vettel overtakes on track if he was so much faster, or they wait out and play the smart game. Turns out, Webber turned the heat up abit, Hamilton fell back and Vettel looked an idiot.
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 Post subject: Re: Team Orders
PostPosted: 27 Mar 2013, 13:43  
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mikhailv wrote:
Yes, Id go for option 2. Because Hamilton getting by Vettel is a different thing.

You would go for the option that would give the team fewer points?

mikhailv wrote:
Webber wasn't told to speed up. So either Vettel overtakes on track if he was so much faster, or they wait out and play the smart game. Turns out, Webber turned the heat up abit, Hamilton fell back and Vettel looked an idiot.

He was told not to.
Whether you believe Webber to be faster or not, Vettel was still told not to overtake.
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 Post subject: Re: Team Orders
PostPosted: 27 Mar 2013, 15:41  
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mnmracer wrote:
mikhailv wrote:
Yes, Id go for option 2. Because Hamilton getting by Vettel is a different thing.

You would go for the option that would give the team fewer points?

mikhailv wrote:
Webber wasn't told to speed up. So either Vettel overtakes on track if he was so much faster, or they wait out and play the smart game. Turns out, Webber turned the heat up abit, Hamilton fell back and Vettel looked an idiot.

He was told not to.
Whether you believe Webber to be faster or not, Vettel was still told not to overtake.


1) It wouldn't give the team fewer points. Pit radio before shown Rosberg was to push and not worry, lewis had to be cautious. Then came the fuel saving and instant drop backs. It would never have given them less points.

2) Is that the same Vettel who was told to hold station and didn't? Do you really think he would stay behind webber then? Come off it, you cant pull that card. Vettel was told to hold station and took advantage of Webber with lower revs. He couldn't do that earlier in the race when he was 'faster' because he wasn't faster.

Cant go saying 'well he obeyed team orders there but didn't later'. He didn't have the ability he claimed he had. Simple as.
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 Post subject: Re: Team Orders
PostPosted: 27 Mar 2013, 16:46  
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mikhailv wrote:
1) It wouldn't give the team fewer points. Pit radio before shown Rosberg was to push and not worry, lewis had to be cautious. Then came the fuel saving and instant drop backs. It would never have given them less points.

Hamilton was as close to Vettel as Vettel was to Webber (1.5s).
After their 3rd pit stop, if Vettel's stop had been 2 tenths longer, Rosberg would have passed him.

Those are the facts.
How can you take those in and still say Red Bulls orders to slow down would not have endangered points.

mikhailv wrote:
2) Is that the same Vettel who was told to hold station and didn't? Do you really think he would stay behind webber then? Come off it, you cant pull that card. Vettel was told to hold station and took advantage of Webber with lower revs. He couldn't do that earlier in the race when he was 'faster' because he wasn't faster.

You don't disobey your boss unless there is a good reason.
If your boss tells you you will get your chance later in the race, there is no reason to disobey him.
When your boss then tells you 'later in the race' that you are not allowed to go for the win, you have a reason to disobey him.
Common sense.

You can squirm all you want, but it doesn't make a god damn sense whatsoever that if they want the gap at 3 seconds, and there is no way for Vettel to fall back 3 seconds (Hamilton was 3 seconds back), to have Webber create a gap of 1.5 seconds. But you are clearly not interested in a sensible discussion, as you are choosing to make incorrect statements about what would garner the team most points, so I'm kind of done with it.
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 Post subject: Re: Team Orders
PostPosted: 27 Mar 2013, 18:50  
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mnmracer wrote:
mikhailv wrote:
1) It wouldn't give the team fewer points. Pit radio before shown Rosberg was to push and not worry, lewis had to be cautious. Then came the fuel saving and instant drop backs. It would never have given them less points.

Hamilton was as close to Vettel as Vettel was to Webber (1.5s).
After their 3rd pit stop, if Vettel's stop had been 2 tenths longer, Rosberg would have passed him.

Those are the facts.
How can you take those in and still say Red Bulls orders to slow down would not have endangered points.

mikhailv wrote:
2) Is that the same Vettel who was told to hold station and didn't? Do you really think he would stay behind webber then? Come off it, you cant pull that card. Vettel was told to hold station and took advantage of Webber with lower revs. He couldn't do that earlier in the race when he was 'faster' because he wasn't faster.

You don't disobey your boss unless there is a good reason.
If your boss tells you you will get your chance later in the race, there is no reason to disobey him.
When your boss then tells you 'later in the race' that you are not allowed to go for the win, you have a reason to disobey him.
Common sense.

You can squirm all you want, but it doesn't make a god damn sense whatsoever that if they want the gap at 3 seconds, and there is no way for Vettel to fall back 3 seconds (Hamilton was 3 seconds back), to have Webber create a gap of 1.5 seconds. But you are clearly not interested in a sensible discussion, as you are choosing to make incorrect statements about what would garner the team most points, so I'm kind of done with it.


So the gap was the same, yet Webber was going faster after the radio message than Vettel. So wasn't that Vettel shouting his mouth off with no talking on track being done? You cant in any way, shape or form say Vettel obeyed team orders then. Otherwise he would've obeyed them at the end. And, Vettel came out 3rd. Then got the upper hand in the 3rd round of pit stops because the radio messages throughout the race telling nico to push but lewis to ease and manage, was because he was underfuelled.

What your suggesting is what cost Alonso 2010; overreacting to a single car without seeing the bigger picture and letting it play out. Vettel was never under any pressure or threat from lewis on track at that time.

Ok, so if Vettel was under threat from Hamilton and was much faster than Webber; he follows team orders because 'it makes sense' to fall into Hamiltons clutches and obey team orders. When ordered to just come home in formation with no threat from behind, that DOESN'T make sense to Vettel, so he disobeys it?

That's what you've just said. Be done all you want. Your the one who looks daft here, saying he's right to obey orders which would put him at such a big risk to lewis, yet, risk free and requested to just stay in formation and don't bring on any potential problems but that's wrong of him to obey those orders?

See. What you are saying makes zero sense.
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 Post subject: Re: Team Orders
PostPosted: 27 Mar 2013, 19:16  
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Have you actually watched the race?
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 Post subject: Re: Team Orders
PostPosted: 27 Mar 2013, 20:17  
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mnmracer wrote:
Have you actually watched the race?


No I havn't. Ignore the posts in the race thread discussing it with other members live though. Have you read the post and the contradiction of what your saying? because you claimed Vettel obeyed team orders to stay behind Webber when Hamilton was chasing him, but opted to ignore them when they were miles ahead, claiming 'if you dont agree with your bosses you go against them'. Well, what better time to disagree when your being hunted down by Lewis Hamilton as opposed to being scot free and told to bring the car home?

Doesnt make sense.
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 Post subject: Re: Team Orders
PostPosted: 28 Mar 2013, 02:04  
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This is getting intense. *takes ten steps back*
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