Team Orders

[donald29]

Everyone's missing the main point here.

Irrespective of the Vettel-Webber issue, the more important fact is that Vettel has undermined Horner.

Team principals don't hold Horner with huge respect. Part of that is the dominance, part of that is because he's in Bernie's pocket, but part of that is because he is weak. This latest issue undermines him further and weakens Red Bull's position in political discussions.

Gotta disagree on that being the main point. The main point is what Sebastian has done and how that has affected the F1 community's perspective towards him. With Horner, Marko, and Mateschitz in the picture, it was always vague who's really in charge. And then we hear Seb saying 'Mark is too slow, get him outta the way', and you get the feeling that he's running the RB show...

The F1 community's perspective on Vettel won't change too much. A lot already rate Alonso and Hamilton as superior. This merely adds to their ammunition.

It has hugely weakened Horner's position. He is not in charge. Who is?

Can't remember who said it, but someone made the point that this is a problem of the team principal being an employee. Horner is basically just working for Mateschitz back in Austria.

Horner was so weak that race. When he said 'this is silly Seb, come on' he sounded like a supply teacher with no control of the class. Compare with how Brawn slapped down Rosberg. Horner should have said clearly and forcefully 'do not pass Mark'. Just saying 'this is silly', Vettel could turn around and say (like he did) I didn't realise he didn't want me to pass. If he said 'do not pass' Vettel would have no excuse.

[mnmracer]

Ah, Roebuck has spoken. Therefore it is the gospel.

Anyway, that particular order was 'maintain the gap, which he evidently ignored.

Ah. Phil has spoken. Therefore its gospel

You can easily see he backs out of it. He stays behind Vettel. Showing he could have him but is letting him have this one under team orders. Vettel should've made the point as well in Malaysia.

A completely moot argument considering the order was to maintain the gap, not to 'not overtake'.
"No your honor, I should not be convicted for burglary, because although I stole their stuff, I could have killed that family in their sleep and I didn't."
Would be interesting to see.

But so you are basically calling Mark a liar, who said himself in the post-race conference AND in his own BBC column that he was ignoring the teamorders and fighting 'till the end.

[mikhailv]

Ah, Roebuck has spoken. Therefore it is the gospel.

Anyway, that particular order was 'maintain the gap, which he evidently ignored.

Ah. Phil has spoken. Therefore its gospel

You can easily see he backs out of it. He stays behind Vettel. Showing he could have him but is letting him have this one under team orders. Vettel should've made the point as well in Malaysia.

A completely moot argument considering the order was to maintain the gap, not to 'not overtake'.
"No your honor, I should not be convicted for burglary, because although I stole their stuff, I could have killed that family in their sleep and I didn't."
Would be interesting to see.

But so you are basically calling Mark a liar, who said himself in the post-race conference AND in his own BBC column that he was ignoring the teamorders and fighting 'till the end.

1) bulls** example you are using. Webber was flexing his speed which he had and could easily overtake Vettel
2) Webber was clearly saving face. Its not the first time.
3) Webber did maintain the gap. All he did was show how easy he couldve swallowed vettel.

Not that it Matters. And its not a moot point. Webber couldve easily done what Vettel did and overtake for the win. He didn't. Instead he showed he could do and that Vettel was at his mercy. Something Vettel should've done. Either way. Roebuck has much more credibility than yourself, and he isn't the first person to say Webber honored team orders by not being a d**k and overtaking Vettel; just showing him he was at his mercy.

If you cant see how easy Webber wouldve overtook Vettel, then your blind.

[mnmracer]

FACT: the gap was 4 seconds at the time of the order.
FACT: Mark Webber spent three laps, closer than 1 second to Vettel.

But you are also evading a question you were asked.
Are you calling Mark Webber a liar for (multiple times) proudly telling the world that he ignored teamorders?

[mikhailv]

FACT: the gap was 4 seconds at the time of the order.
FACT: Mark Webber spent three laps, closer than 1 second to Vettel.

But you are also evading a question you were asked.
Are you calling Mark Webber a liar for (multiple times) proudly telling the world that he ignored teamorders?

Oh. that it? Keep the 4 second gap, he was told. Why was this? To stop Webber overtaking Vettel even though he was faster. Webber didn't keep a gap. He went and showed everyone he could overtake but was being told not to. Webber still obeyed the team order of not overtaking Vettel. That's the point. Webber was told to keep the gap so he wouldn't overtake Vettel, as Vettels prior radio insinuated that the team should 'be wise' because he would take himself and Webber out the race. Keep the gap to not overtake Vettel. Webber kept a gap. Not the 4 seconds, but he still kept a gap, still stayed in second, still did the job for the team, and obeyed the intended instruction behind 'keep the gap'.

Not avoiding anything, I already insinuated Webber lied, but if you want me to point blank say it; Mark Webber Lied to save face at the British grand prix in 2011. Done it before, will do it again. Lest we forget, he surrendered his wing that race to Vettel. He has continually said he is equal to Vettel. So in return, do you believe Webber when he says he is equal? or do you think, like he said in Silverstone 2011; He was saving face?

Massa said Germany 2010 wasn't team orders. We all knew it was. but it was illegal to admit. but he still lied to try saving face. Alonso did aswell; said he didn't need Massa to move over. To save face.

[mnmracer]

Oh. that it? Keep the 4 second gap, he was told. Why was this? To stop Webber overtaking Vettel even though he was faster. Webber didn't keep a gap. He went and showed everyone he could overtake but was being told not to. Webber still obeyed the team order of not overtaking Vettel. That's the point. Webber was told to keep the gap so he wouldn't overtake Vettel, as Vettels prior radio insinuated that the team should 'be wise' because he would take himself and Webber out the race. Keep the gap to not overtake Vettel. Webber kept a gap. Not the 4 seconds, but he still kept a gap, still stayed in second, still did the job for the team, and obeyed the intended instruction behind 'keep the gap'.

Wow, you are desperate aren't you.
Can you at least have the decency to admit you have nothing factual to back-up your claim?

[iceman1]

So it's not only Mercedes. But according to AMuS Webber had fuel problems as well!

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 91460.html

[Vlad-SRB]

It is a logical thing, considering how much he pushed in the middle of the race, when Vettel pulled back and saved it.

[mikhailv]

I think it highlights a problem that teams are underfuelling as well. So its not that the tyres go off so quick, its also that teams aren't fuelling cars to be pushed to the edge because tyres go off and teams dont want the weight of the fuel penalizing the car.

So on that, there should be a minimum litre/kilo of fuel limit introduced and then its ALL about managing tyres, NOT because your trying to get by on fumes. Teams clearly have the fuel tank capacity and as such, should be utilised correctly.

[phil1993]

Teams have always underfuelled, it's nothing new. But occasionally teams misjudge it; Mercedes admitted they expected the rain to last and the safety car to intervene. It did not, so fuel consumption was higher than anticipated.

[mikhailv]

I know they under fuel, but not to the point of the detriment we are getting now. Refuelling for example, it never happened because fuel usage was factored in for how long you could max-attack for.

The point where its detrimental to severely dropping pace is ridiculous.

[LotusF1]

Team orders are and have been a part of F1 for eons, but are they necessary? Having followed MotoGP for a few years, I very much doubt it. The very thought of team orders in MotoGP is laughable, and as a result, some great intra-team rivalries build up and (for the most part) get settled on the track. Much unlike F1 team bosses, MotoGP chiefs aren't under the delusion that they can babysit their riders any longer once the red lights go out. Imagine trying to implement a multi 21 with Rossi and Lorenzo....

I have to admit, it's pretty exciting watching team mates in MotoGP go at each other without restraint.

[François]

Did you join the boards just to keep agreeing with me?

I think I like you!

[LotusF1]

Everyone's missing the main point here.

Irrespective of the Vettel-Webber issue, the more important fact is that Vettel has undermined Horner.

Team principals don't hold Horner with huge respect. Part of that is the dominance, part of that is because he's in Bernie's pocket, but part of that is because he is weak. This latest issue undermines him further and weakens Red Bull's position in political discussions.

Gotta disagree on that being the main point. The main point is what Sebastian has done and how that has affected the F1 community's perspective towards him. With Horner, Marko, and Mateschitz in the picture, it was always vague who's really in charge. And then we hear Seb saying 'Mark is too slow, get him outta the way', and you get the feeling that he's running the RB show...

The F1 community's perspective on Vettel won't change too much. A lot already rate Alonso and Hamilton as superior. This merely adds to their ammunition.

It has hugely weakened Horner's position. He is not in charge. Who is?

Can't remember who said it, but someone made the point that this is a problem of the team principal being an employee. Horner is basically just working for Mateschitz back in Austria.

Horner was so weak that race. When he said 'this is silly Seb, come on' he sounded like a supply teacher with no control of the class. Compare with how Brawn slapped down Rosberg. Horner should have said clearly and forcefully 'do not pass Mark'. Just saying 'this is silly', .

I wonder in retrospect how forceful Senna and Prost's team boss was. I know whatever he told them fell on deaf ears apparently....

[mikhailv]

Everyone's missing the main point here.

Irrespective of the Vettel-Webber issue, the more important fact is that Vettel has undermined Horner.

Team principals don't hold Horner with huge respect. Part of that is the dominance, part of that is because he's in Bernie's pocket, but part of that is because he is weak. This latest issue undermines him further and weakens Red Bull's position in political discussions.

Gotta disagree on that being the main point. The main point is what Sebastian has done and how that has affected the F1 community's perspective towards him. With Horner, Marko, and Mateschitz in the picture, it was always vague who's really in charge. And then we hear Seb saying 'Mark is too slow, get him outta the way', and you get the feeling that he's running the RB show...

The F1 community's perspective on Vettel won't change too much. A lot already rate Alonso and Hamilton as superior. This merely adds to their ammunition.

It has hugely weakened Horner's position. He is not in charge. Who is?

Can't remember who said it, but someone made the point that this is a problem of the team principal being an employee. Horner is basically just working for Mateschitz back in Austria.

Horner was so weak that race. When he said 'this is silly Seb, come on' he sounded like a supply teacher with no control of the class. Compare with how Brawn slapped down Rosberg. Horner should have said clearly and forcefully 'do not pass Mark'. Just saying 'this is silly', .

I wonder in retrospect how forceful Senna and Prost's team boss was. I know whatever he told them fell on deaf ears apparently....

Well Dennis managed to lose both drivers, along with Alonso, Hamiltons, Montoya, Raikkonen.......... So it says alot.