A little help needed in Formula 1 survey for thesis

[kals]

Yes and?

[mikhailv]

[quote="kals"]Yes and?[/
He put money into the team and thought it was far too expensive hence selling it. Just like he said 250k a race for brawn was too much. so he didnt just sponsor, he funded it.

[phil1993]

Yeah, but when you think you had 8 retirements in a race say, you would still have to finish top 6 or 8, whereas now the reliability is more, but the points system is two places higher aswell. I think thats why the points sytem was changed; because reliability was more so they increased two further points positions to accomodate it.

Yes but at the moment it helps the likes of Toro Rosso and Force India. The last time less than 10 drivers finished a race was Australia 2008.

[mikhailv]

Yeah, but when you think you had 8 retirements in a race say, you would still have to finish top 6 or 8, whereas now the reliability is more, but the points system is two places higher aswell. I think thats why the points sytem was changed; because reliability was more so they increased two further points positions to accomodate it.

Yes but at the moment it helps the likes of Toro Rosso and Force India. The last time less than 10 drivers finished a race was Australia 2008.

Yeah thats the point im making phil, points were extended to accomodate more cars. If caterham/marussia were at a level close to STR, then you would have a genuine fight for the last points. instead you dont. because theyre so far behind. wheras a properly funded team would have half a chance.

[tderias]

I kind of agree with mikhailv. The bottom 3 teams have shown no character in the past 3 years. I think its fair to say that all three including HRT enjoyed their best season in 2010, hence every following season it was worse for them.

Now, they exist in F1 thanks to employing pay drivers, and when you start wondering about what the future might hold for these two teams, you really can't see light at the end of the tunnel.

As for STR, enough has been said about them already...

[phil1993]

It takes time to build character in F1. Caterham and Marussia people have a lot of passion and already a loyal fanbase. Think of circuits - we love Spa, Silverstone etc but they're old. It takes time to have character.

[kals]

You're flogging a dead horse Phil. I think we'll all need to agree to disagree on this one.

[phil1993]

You're flogging a dead horse Phil. I think we'll all need to agree to disagree on this one.

I thought I was agreeing with you in terms of Caterham/Marussia having passion? My point was that we go all rosy-tinted at Minardi etc, but forget that the current bottom teams have a similar passion.

[kals]

You're flogging a dead horse Phil. I think we'll all need to agree to disagree on this one.

I thought I was agreeing with you in terms of Caterham/Marussia having passion? My point was that we go all rosy-tinted at Minardi etc, but forget that the current bottom teams have a similar passion.

You and I agree, whereas our opinions aren't shared. That's what I meant.

[phil1993]

Oh sorry. Yeah.

[kals]

No apologies needed, I should have been more specific with my point.

But here's the thing, I'm actually interested to know how people compare the current back end teams with others like Simtek, Pacific and even Forti Corse of the mid-nineties.

[phil1993]

I don't have a deep knowledge of the 90s but I see Caterham and Marussia as doing everything the right way. I don't think they realised the scale of the challenge quite so hugely, but I see a future for them. Some of the mid-90s teams that I've read about seemed truly dreadful. I think it'll be time to properly evaluate Caterham/Marussia from 2014. If they join the midfield, fantastic. If they're still that 1.5-2s down on the midfield, you have to start wondering when the breakthrough will come.

Neither are disgraceful - their cars are now reliable and the pace is slowly but surely improving as they recruit better people and go to better facilities. If we didn't have them, we'd have 18 cars. The sport is healthier with 22, and it creates an intriguing battle at the back.

[mikhailv]

I don't have a deep knowledge of the 90s but I see Caterham and Marussia as doing everything the right way. I don't think they realised the scale of the challenge quite so hugely, but I see a future for them. Some of the mid-90s teams that I've read about seemed truly dreadful. I think it'll be time to properly evaluate Caterham/Marussia from 2014. If they join the midfield, fantastic. If they're still that 1.5-2s down on the midfield, you have to start wondering when the breakthrough will come.

Neither are disgraceful - their cars are now reliable and the pace is slowly but surely improving as they recruit better people and go to better facilities. If we didn't have them, we'd have 18 cars. The sport is healthier with 22, and it creates an intriguing battle at the back.

I dont have 90's knowledge either, but from what I know they were utter jokes which is testament to the quality of modern day F1 and also is still credit to Caterham/Marussia.

I agree that the sport is healthier with 22 cars than 18. but we all know who will finish last; marussia. we all know who will finish 10th; Caterham. We all know STR will finish 9th. Really, the only battle we have is the top 3 and then 4th and 5th, then 6th-8th. So its who out of Mclaren/RB/Ferrari will win, then which out of merc/lotus will be best behind the rest of the top 3, then sauber/williams/FI midfield battle followed by the usual last 3 finished positions. If caterham/STR/Marussia left the sport, I dare so nobody would miss those teams. Just the numbers they made up, which is my whole point. I mean, the thing is, Caterham even admitted that all their promises were false about moving forward and stuff. They just arent doing anything worthwhile. I was never a fan of Minardi, but what got peoples support was the spirit of the team and what they did for F1; they brought solid drivers and future winners. They didnt just take pay drivers, they took talent too. They never false-promised to leap into the midfield either.

And yeah it takes time to build character, but personalities are instantly made. Eddie Jordan, Paul Stoddart, Jackie Stewart. The faces of the teams. Mike Gascoyne to me, is an utter tosspot. John Booth is a good bloke, but i dont even know anyone else from Marussia. They're totally invisible. HRT folded after 2 abysmal years, Caterham who once bragged they took talent over money have none gone totally opposite because they only way for them to keep going like marussia, is to just take pay drivers with no hope or belief in moving forward.

Its just upsetting to see for the workers, because theyre fighting a losing battle they should never have been entered to in the first place which was my original point. If they were taking proper talent on, keeping talent to progress forward, id be more happy.

In honesty, I used to like Caterham but since ditching kovalainen/petrov and then Gascoynes comments on kovy, my opinion quickly changed. at first they portrayed themself as an underdog team who truly wanted to move forward and i supported them, they sempt to be doing something and progressing but in reality theyve just gone 3 steps backwards taking pay drivers and admitting they just arent going anywhere.

[phil1993]

F1's more corporate nowadays sadly.

Mike Gascoyne's no longer involved with the F1 side of Caterham's operations.

But then, F1's always had stages. We've got 3, 4, maybe 5 teams fighting for wins and then a very healthy midfield. 10 years ago it was similar, just with different teams. Ferrari/McLaren/Williams fighting for the title, then Renault, then Sauber/BAR or whatever.

[mikhailv]

Yeah im pleased he's gone. Didnt like him at renault. I dont mind the stages, its always been done. I think for me, Minardi knew why they were there; to be at the back and more often than not bring in fresh talent to be picked up, not pay drivers all the time but genuine talent, they brought that and personality. I think in the past 3 years, we have only had Williams and Sauber doing that with Hulk and Sergio.

I know that there is alot of reliability in modern day formula 1, but there just doesnt seem to be any spirited strategy with those teams, they dont seem to take any risks. I remember Wincklehock boxing on the parade lap to get full wets and he ended up leading the race. I know we have variables now with the tyres as oppose to fuel loads, but it just seems asif they dont even try anything spirited.

I mean if you look at what they are doing with the budget, you cant help but admire them but on the flipside imagine what they could do with a bigger budget. Which brings me full circle as to saying give all teams tv money, and give Caterham/Marussia, even if its just one or two years; money to bring them into the fray, to bring them forward.

We need teams, but we also need them to be competative. There was always races where a minardi or whatever finished where it shouldnt have, thanks in part to strategy, true talent and reliability issues ofcourse assisted this. if they were at the level or a few tenths off toro rosso, the sport truly would be a better sport, because they have the ability to fight, whereas you know and they know they just arent going to ever score unless half the field has mechanical failures. Even abu dhabi with all the crashes and collisions, they were nowhere to capitalise in any way.

They need a cash inject and personally, CVC want more money right? Well spend money on the back teams to give them competative exposure to get more sponsors plastered onto the TV and inject money into the sport instead of the overly elitist 'the teams are our enemy' attitude which CVC has.