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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Formula One Discussion
PostPosted: 26 Jun 2013, 23:24  
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I'm not exactly sold on Bottas either, but his complete performance at Montreal was impressive. He's doing better than Maldonado, but Maldo has been clearly struggling, so it's difficult to see who is actually better or faster...

Maldonado and Grosjean have a very similar style, kinda like Hamilton; seems like they are all a bit uncomfortable with the tires.......
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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Formula One Discussion
PostPosted: 27 Jun 2013, 00:45  
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F1EA wrote:
I'm not exactly sold on Bottas either, but his complete performance at Montreal was impressive. He's doing better than Maldonado, but Maldo has been clearly struggling, so it's difficult to see who is actually better or faster...

Maldonado and Grosjean have a very similar style, kinda like Hamilton; seems like they are all a bit uncomfortable with the tires.......


I beg to differ. Grosjean has one of the smoothest driving styles on the grid. He goes around corners like he's trying to thread a needle. Watch some onboard footage of his and you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. Now, both crashed a lot last year, but Maldonado has a different style that's not to be confused with Romains. Grosjean crashed because he lacked racecraft, awareness, and basically the ability to judge distances and anticipate the movement of cars around him. Maldonado crashed because for the most part he thought he could push and shove his way around like it was a video game.

Pastor is very, very aggressive. Felipe Massa-like aggressive. He leans on his tyres and basically tries to push the car everywhere rather than guide it around a corner like Grosjean does. Probably explains why he's struggling with the tyre deg.

Hamilton is not as aggressive. He's starting to adapt to the tyres, knowing when to push and when to let the car roll. I always thought the chassis regulation changes in 2009 harmed Lewis. He was blindingly quick in 2007 and 2008. I know the McLaren in 2009 was terrible, but even in years after that, Lewis never seemed the scary, super-fast driver that he once was. Now, a certain German has taken up that role...

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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Formula One Discussion
PostPosted: 27 Jun 2013, 04:39  
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Grosjean has been noticeably tamed. He was easily matching Kimi when he was able to push all the way and the car responded... Pastor simply hasn't tamed down, so the car is making him pay.

Kimi is a very gentle driver; if Grosjean drove (and was comfortable) being kind like Kimi, there's no way they'd be making it seem as if they were each driving a different chassis.

Lewis was VERY fast when he had a car that rewarded his style. For some time now, he hasn't been (consistently) at the level he was in 2007.

Vettel is the best Qualifier at the moment. Perhaps one of the best ever?
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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Formula One Discussion
PostPosted: 28 Jun 2013, 16:20  
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It is quite funny how some people seem physically unable to admit Vettel is better than Webber. It's remarkable some even consider it an unanswered question. 5 seasons evidence is pretty clear, but some people can not bring themselves to give Vettel the slightest bit of praise or credit.

Webber's been a very good driver, and put in some great drivers, but ultimately he's not done that often enough.

Interesting also Mateschitz didn't seem surprised by the announcement, but Horner was told only an hour before. Further suggests who is really in charge...

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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Formula One Discussion
PostPosted: 29 Jun 2013, 10:15  
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donald29 wrote:
It is quite funny how some people seem physically unable to admit Vettel is better than Webber. It's remarkable some even consider it an unanswered question. 5 seasons evidence is pretty clear, but some people can not bring themselves to give Vettel the slightest bit of praise or credit.

Webber's been a very good driver, and put in some great drivers, but ultimately he's not done that often enough.

Interesting also Mateschitz didn't seem surprised by the announcement, but Horner was told only an hour before. Further suggests who is really in charge...


Vettel is better than Webber any day. Its such a crying shame though that if it wasnt Vettel, Hamilton or Alonso being teammates with Webber at RBR, Webber wouldve won at least 2 WDC.
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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Formula One Discussion
PostPosted: 01 Jul 2013, 20:46  
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donald29 wrote:
It is quite funny how some people seem physically unable to admit Vettel is better than Webber. It's remarkable some even consider it an unanswered question. 5 seasons evidence is pretty clear, but some people can not bring themselves to give Vettel the slightest bit of praise or credit.

Webber's been a very good driver, and put in some great drivers, but ultimately he's not done that often enough.


Vettel may be faster, but the better Driver? Sebastian got the whole Team on his Side. And that DOES make a diffrence. When everyone in the Team supports you, well, example from the past: Even Eddie Irvine was a winning Driver and fighting for the Title till the last Race. If it comes to pure Speed, Vettel is ahead, no doubt. But remember last year, the first few races, where the Red Bull didnt fit Sebastians Driving Style? Marc was not only closer, he was ahead more then once till the Car's Updates made it fit for Sebastian once again.
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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Formula One Discussion
PostPosted: 02 Jul 2013, 03:09  
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TGO wrote:
donald29 wrote:
It is quite funny how some people seem physically unable to admit Vettel is better than Webber. It's remarkable some even consider it an unanswered question. 5 seasons evidence is pretty clear, but some people can not bring themselves to give Vettel the slightest bit of praise or credit.

Webber's been a very good driver, and put in some great drivers, but ultimately he's not done that often enough.


Vettel may be faster, but the better Driver? Sebastian got the whole Team on his Side. And that DOES make a diffrence. When everyone in the Team supports you, well, example from the past: Even Eddie Irvine was a winning Driver and fighting for the Title till the last Race. If it comes to pure Speed, Vettel is ahead, no doubt. But remember last year, the first few races, where the Red Bull didnt fit Sebastians Driving Style? Marc was not only closer, he was ahead more then once till the Car's Updates made it fit for Sebastian once again.

I honestly do believe Vettel is the best driver in F1 at the moment. Alonso is in a close second, with Hamilton and Raikkonen right behind. Then Webber, then a big drop-off to Button, Grosjean, Massa, and most of the number one drivers at midfield teams.
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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Formula One Discussion
PostPosted: 02 Jul 2013, 11:06  
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Where does Rosberg fit in to your ratings?
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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Formula One Discussion
PostPosted: 02 Jul 2013, 11:19  
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For me,it goes;

Alonso/Hamilton, Vettel, Raikkonen, Webber, Rosberg, Massa, Perez, Button/Sutil, Di resta.
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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Formula One Discussion
PostPosted: 02 Jul 2013, 11:29  
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kals wrote:
Where does Rosberg fit in to your ratings?

Right, forgot about him.

The top twelve would be like this: Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton/Raikkonen, Webber/Rosberg, Button/Massa/Grosjean, Perez, Hulkenberg/Sutil.


Last edited by Joey Zyla on 02 Jul 2013, 12:16, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Formula One Discussion
PostPosted: 02 Jul 2013, 12:04  
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Joey Zyla wrote:
I honestly do believe Vettel is the best driver in F1 at the moment. Alonso is in a close second, with Hamilton and Raikkonen right behind. Then Webber, then a big drop-off to Button, Grosjean, Massa, and most of the number one drivers at midfield teams.


Well, i cant agree there. Vettel may be the fastest Driver, but he is surely not the Best. Everytime when he starts in the midfield and needs to overtake, he gets involved in collisions etc. And its not always the other Drivers fault, for sure not. He had a lot of Luck not to totally destroy his Car in those Situations, usually nothing more then a Frontwing or a few Aero-Parts fell off. And thats the Reason why i see Alonso as the better Driver. I honestly belive Vettel would not be a 3 time Champ and would have won that many Races if he didnt have the Advantage to drive away from the front most times. Overtaking People like Alonso, Hamilton or Raikonnen wont harm him, because they back off bevore they would collide. But as soon as he had to fight with the Crash Kiddies from the midfield - he always had to get a few new parts for his Car afterwards.
Dont get me wrong, he IS one of the best, and he surely deserves his 3 Titles. But he is - at least not in my view - THE best Driver in F1 currently.
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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Formula One Discussion
PostPosted: 02 Jul 2013, 12:18  
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TGO wrote:
Joey Zyla wrote:
I honestly do believe Vettel is the best driver in F1 at the moment. Alonso is in a close second, with Hamilton and Raikkonen right behind. Then Webber, then a big drop-off to Button, Grosjean, Massa, and most of the number one drivers at midfield teams.


Well, i cant agree there. Vettel may be the fastest Driver, but he is surely not the Best. Everytime when he starts in the midfield and needs to overtake, he gets involved in collisions etc. And its not always the other Drivers fault, for sure not. He had a lot of Luck not to totally destroy his Car in those Situations, usually nothing more then a Frontwing or a few Aero-Parts fell off. And thats the Reason why i see Alonso as the better Driver. I honestly belive Vettel would not be a 3 time Champ and would have won that many Races if he didnt have the Advantage to drive away from the front most times. Overtaking People like Alonso, Hamilton or Raikonnen wont harm him, because they back off bevore they would collide. But as soon as he had to fight with the Crash Kiddies from the midfield - he always had to get a few new parts for his Car afterwards.
Dont get me wrong, he IS one of the best, and he surely deserves his 3 Titles. But he is - at least not in my view - THE best Driver in F1 currently.

In 2012 there was a race in Abu Dhabi. Do you remember that race?
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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Formula One Discussion
PostPosted: 02 Jul 2013, 12:22  
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Yes, I remember that race. That was the race where Vettel started at the tail of the field, knocked off his front wing against Bruno Senna and a marker board (when failing to notice Daniel Ricciardo ahead of him), went off strategy because of his mistakes and then thanks to a couple of well timed safety cars he got into a position where he could challenge for a podium position. Is that the race you're referring to?

That said, and joking aside, I don't agree with TGO's summary on Vettel. Vettel has shown multiple times he can and does overtake at crucial moments which aides him winning races.

Vettel also came through the field during Brazil 2009 (just not for a win), but people tend to forget that race as it was the one where Jenson dominated the headlines.
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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Formula One Discussion
PostPosted: 02 Jul 2013, 12:30  
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Joey Zyla wrote:
In 2012 there was a race in Abu Dhabi. Do you remember that race?

I do. And Abu Dhabi is one of those Races im talking about:


He was just lucky there. He had the best Car, and would have gotten the Williams anyway. But he takes way too much risk. And he does it every Time when he needs to get through the field. Other had collisions, too. But for sure not as often as Sebastian. thats why i think Alonso is a better/more complete Driver. What if he had damaged more then just his frontwing in that Race? I guess minus 1 Title would have been the Result. Its just not necassary. And situations like that one happen way to often when he needs to overtake. He could have thrown away the Title there. But i guess it needs a bigger collision till he will change that behave, as long as it turns our lucky, he wont change it anyway.
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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Formula One Discussion
PostPosted: 02 Jul 2013, 13:46  
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Abu Dhabi was brilliant by Vettel. overtaking 3 cars, 2 falling off track, 4 crashing infront, his teammate spinning a rival then letting him through overtake a 15 lap older tyred average driver. All that after starting from the pitlane after a complete set-up change from qualifying to a full race set-up with high top speed on the straights. And nearly crashing twice.
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