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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Formula One Discussion
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2013, 19:35  
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kals wrote:
There's going to be a lot more pressure on Button now as...

- Hamilton (the supposed faster driver and team "darling") is gone
- Perez has joined and has zero history with the team, but is known to be very quick
- Jenson is now the senior figure and will be expected to be McLaren's sole challenger for the title


Buttons going to fail miserably. Lewis lost his favour in the team in 2010.



phil1993 wrote:
It's peculiar with Jenson, because he can be a right bastard yet he always comes out smelling of roses. He's a nice guy, which is I guess why that happens.

I just don't think Whitmarsh is right at McLaren. I see him as doing a good job, but not as team principal. Something at that team needed shaking up, but losing Lewis and Paddy Lowe was perhaps the worst thing to happen. McLaren needed to do more - not just in terms of racing, but behind the scenes - to convince Lewis he was their #1 for the next few years. They couldn't do that and it's to their detriment.

Supposedly Sauber was pretty unimpressed with Perez towards the end of 2012 in terms of commitment, but according to Autosport he's bucked up and put in the commitment over the winter.


I dont like Jenson, he is a smarmy and scheming swine. Whitmarsh is a decent team boss. I think his problem is, jenson was HIS signing, and HIS darling. Ron is gone so Martin was no longer under his shadow, but the team was still building towards Lewis which severely hampered Jenson. I dont believe Jense will established a firm holding on the team at all.

And Perez to me is over rated.


kals wrote:
I think you'll find that Perez did everything he could at Sauber to showcase the talent he's got. And then when Ferrari said no and McLaren said yes he felt didn't need to prove anything anymore and his performances go some way to agree with that.

Whitmarsh hasn't done a good job at McLaren since being handed the reigns by Dennis. Not a good job at all. That's like saying Nick Fry did a good job when Brawn won the titles in 2009. Whitmarsh mismanaged the relationship with Lewis to a very poor extent and instead helped to alienate him. In 2012, despite having the best car at the start of the season Whitmarsh allowed poor pitstop management to be a continual theme and when they recorded the quickest pitstop of all time, lauded his team's effectiveness and speed.... forgetting how many points had been lost up until that point... then there was Barcelona...


See I dont see what talent Perez truly has. I know he had 3 podiums, but if you look, they were podiums which were gambles on a reverse tyre strategy in Monza and in Canada. It wasn't speed, overtaking, skill. it was qualifying poorly and going against the safe option most of the field went for. Thats not talent, thats spirited strategy. Malaysia was a great performance, but again the Sauber was better than the Ferrari and we cant bemoan his mistake; it was natural for a young driver under that pressure.

but the rest of 2012 he performed really poorly. Take his podiums away and he scored merely 15 points all season. finished only 6 points ahead of Kamui. Is that impressive? A show of talent? Certainly not at all in my book.

And Whitmarsh still hasnt done a bad job. The blame in 2010 has to lay with the drivers, 2011 lewis failed the team with his mistakes BUT redbull had a league of their own. 2012 is when they cost lewis, and Jenson cost the team.

the driver and car just dont seem to be at optimum at the same time. Jenson was at optimum, the car was a league behind. 2010 the car could win, but Lewis lagged behind making two crucial mistakes. 2012 the car/team failed Lewis, while Jenson failed the car/team.

they just cant get the two components to work in harmony. like Ferrari too.
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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Formula One Discussion
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2013, 19:58  
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I've been following Perez since 2008, when he came close to clinching the British F3 title against the Red Bull / Carlin superteam in the unfancied T-Sport team. I was a Perez doubter before 2008 considering how easily he clinched the 2007 Class-B British F3 title. But he 2008 he was pretty amazing. In GP2 he was great again and was Maldonado's closest rival in 2010.

It doesn't matter how Perez managed to get podiums or points, whether it was through a gamble or not. He achieved each podium and the various points finishes through merit.


Last edited by kals on 11 Mar 2013, 20:58, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: McLaren-Mercedes | MP4-28 | Jenson and 'Checo'
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2013, 20:05  
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People still talk about his double in Monza 2008 - that was special.

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren-Mercedes | MP4-28 | Jenson and 'Checo'
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2013, 20:58  
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It was special, considering where he started both races on the grid and the fact he was running an inferior engine package to the Carlin cars.
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 Post subject: Re: McLaren-Mercedes | MP4-28 | Jenson and 'Checo'
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2013, 22:24  
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might be special in GP2. Not shown it in F1. Previous category success doesnt mean F1 success. it got him to F1 but its how he performs in F1; which Ferrari openly didnt rate him. Thats not something a team openly does. Same with Saubers criticism too.
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 Post subject: Re: McLaren-Mercedes | MP4-28 | Jenson and 'Checo'
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2013, 22:29  
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So let me get this straight, you think Whitmarsh is doing a good job at McLaren yet Perez is impressive?
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 Post subject: Re: McLaren-Mercedes | MP4-28 | Jenson and 'Checo'
PostPosted: 12 Mar 2013, 02:07  
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phil1993 wrote:
Two Number 1 drivers in F1 just does not work.


That's the bottom line.
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 Post subject: Re: McLaren-Mercedes | MP4-28 | Jenson and 'Checo'
PostPosted: 12 Mar 2013, 09:58  
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kals wrote:
So let me get this straight, you think Whitmarsh is doing a good job at McLaren yet Perez is impressive?


Whitmarsh is doing a good job. Perez hasn't impressed me in Formula 1.

Why is whitmarsh doing a good job? 3rd constructors, 2nd constructors, 2nd constructors, 3rd constructors. 20 race wins, 29 further podiums and 1,400 points from 2009-2012, second only to Red Bull. How is that a bad job? Not winning championships? Yeah sure. but it took Ron Dennis 9 years to win another championship after Hakkinen's double. Even then, it took Dennis 7 years to win after Senna in 91 with Mika in 98. Whitmarsh is getting a bad rap for what is actually, nothing. There was reliability issues, but nobody was calling for Ron Dennis' blood during the unreliable MP4-17 to MP4-20 days.

When you look at the seasons, reason 2009 lost? Teams focused on KERS and didnt have double diffusers. 2010? lewis failed the team. 2011? RB in another league. 2012? Jenson failed the team, team failed lewis. 50/50 blame for not taking a title.

And with Perez, subtract his 3 podiums which you rate more than me, What other performances can you say are at that level you see? This is my point. Perez was ok in 2011. in 2012 he was getting all the applause for his podiums, but look at the circumstance then look at all his other races, he wasn't impressive at all.
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 Post subject: Re: McLaren-Mercedes | MP4-28 | Jenson and 'Checo'
PostPosted: 12 Mar 2013, 10:06  
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Lewis failed in 2010?

As far as I can tell, he made one silly mistake in Italy and there was the racing incident in Singapore. He still finished ahead of Button in the standings. Just as easily as you can say those two mistakes cost him the title, you could say that his last lap failure in Spain cost him the title. But overall it was Red Bull's mistakes that almost cost them the title.

Perez is good. Great? I'm not so sure. But in 2011 he scored the same number of points as Kobayashi in the races where they both competed.

I think the thing with McLaren is that they've had the resources to win the title yet they haven't. In the 90s, they didn't have those resources after Senna left and until the Mercedes tie up. They have everything they need - including an amazing base - yet they haven't strung it together. To me they're like Arsenal. Always there, winning, but never actually doing what matters.

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 Post subject: Re: McLaren-Mercedes | MP4-28 | Jenson and 'Checo'
PostPosted: 12 Mar 2013, 12:15  
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mikhailv wrote:
And with Perez, subtract his 3 podiums which you rate more than me, What other performances can you say are at that level you see?


Let me flip this question over, what would it take for Perez (or any other driver in fact) to impress you?
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 Post subject: Re: McLaren-Mercedes | MP4-28 | Jenson and 'Checo'
PostPosted: 12 Mar 2013, 12:42  
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kals wrote:
mikhailv wrote:
And with Perez, subtract his 3 podiums which you rate more than me, What other performances can you say are at that level you see?


Let me flip this question over, what would it take for Perez (or any other driver in fact) to impress you?

When he joins Ferrari :lol:
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 Post subject: Re: McLaren-Mercedes | MP4-28 | Jenson and 'Checo'
PostPosted: 12 Mar 2013, 13:16  
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kals wrote:
mikhailv wrote:
And with Perez, subtract his 3 podiums which you rate more than me, What other performances can you say are at that level you see?


Let me flip this question over, what would it take for Perez (or any other driver in fact) to impress you?



Hulkenberg. after a year out and adjustment he was consistently punching above his weight, consistently scoring, consistently better than his teammate. Both him and perez made crucial mistake in fighting for the lead which is understandable. But Hulkenberg was much more consistent with his equipment.

Thats what wouldve Impressed me. This year im expecting him to win and combfortably beat Button.
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 Post subject: Re: McLaren-Mercedes | MP4-28 | Jenson and 'Checo'
PostPosted: 12 Mar 2013, 13:35  
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phil1993 wrote:
Lewis failed in 2010?

As far as I can tell, he made one silly mistake in Italy and there was the racing incident in Singapore. He still finished ahead of Button in the standings. Just as easily as you can say those two mistakes cost him the title, you could say that his last lap failure in Spain cost him the title. But overall it was Red Bull's mistakes that almost cost them the title.

Perez is good. Great? I'm not so sure. But in 2011 he scored the same number of points as Kobayashi in the races where they both competed.

I think the thing with McLaren is that they've had the resources to win the title yet they haven't. In the 90s, they didn't have those resources after Senna left and until the Mercedes tie up. They have everything they need - including an amazing base - yet they haven't strung it together. To me they're like Arsenal. Always there, winning, but never actually doing what matters.


Everyone had problems;

Alonso:
Monaco P3 crash-own fault
Spa accident- not at fault
Australia Accident- not at fault
Malaysia engine failure- not at fault
Silverstone penalty- at fault

Hamilton:
Monza accident- at fault
Singapore accident- at fault
Mistake cost him the win in korea- at fault
Spain- not at fault
hungary- not at fault

Vettel-
loss of Bahrain win- not at fault
Australia brake failure- not at fault
Turkey crash- at fault
korea engine failure- not at fault
Spa collision/penalty- At fault

When I say lewis cost Mclaren 2010, its because he lost 15 points on his own accord for crashing with massa in monza, he lost 15 points of his own accord crashing with Webber and he made a mistake costing him the race win in korea, so thats 37 points total he lost on his own back whereas Vettel lost 20 on his own mistakes, Alonso lost 28 due to his own mistakes. He was the most reliable driver, the one who didnt make a mistake until he did 2 in a row which were race ending and further one costing him a win.


And Iceman; I dont support Ferrari at all. Only F1 team I ever supported was Renault F1 until they left in 2009.
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 Post subject: Re: McLaren-Mercedes | MP4-28 | Jenson and 'Checo'
PostPosted: 12 Mar 2013, 14:20  
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So if Alonso wasn't at fault for his accident in Spa in 2010, what caused his retirement?
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 Post subject: Re: McLaren-Mercedes | MP4-28 | Jenson and 'Checo'
PostPosted: 12 Mar 2013, 14:23  
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With Korea 2010, there was no way Lewis was going to hold on - his tyres were utterly shot.

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