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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Formula One Discussion
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2013, 17:59  
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I still think it was quite sad that Heikki couldn't adapt to the MP4-23, Instead he really tried to setup the car to his driving style. I think that is what he did wrong. Montoya couldn't have won those 3 races (many more if the team would have been supporting him more and the MP4-20 not breaking down...) without adapting to the driving style required by the Mclaren. Still, Imagine: Montoya/Hamilton in Mclaren 2007-2008, that would have been sick!!
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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Formula One Discussion
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2013, 17:59  
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You have a point on that Phil. :roll::

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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Formula One Discussion
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2013, 18:46  
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Mclaren always had a number 1 policy since the Senna/Prost debacle. Hakkinen over DC, Kimi over DC, Kimi over Montoya. 2007 they shouldve had Alonso over Lewis. They wouldve won the WDC. They wouldve won 2008 just the same. Imagine if Mclaren backed Alonso in 2007, I dont think lewis would be a WDC in Formula 1 still. He wouldnt have won 2008 thats for sure. But they bought into the rookie champion malarky and it cost them. Ever since then they've never recovered IMO. It was luck that they got 2008 in frank honesty.

I just dont think Mclaren as a team, are as good anymore. Theres alot missing from there. Newey? Iron fist Dennis? Competance? I cant put my finger on it. But theres a reason they lost Kimi, Alonso and Lewis within 6 years. 3 of the best 5 F1 drivers of the past 10 years.
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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Formula One Discussion
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2013, 18:56  
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Conversely they would have won had they backed Lewis. I still do not know why they kept him out for so long in China with those tyres - they were down to the canvas for christ sake and they kept him out for several laps!

2008 was peculiar. McLaren wasn't the fastest overall and Lewis made mistakes and had some ridiculous penalties. Equally Kimi just couldn't gel with the car while Massa made some odd mistakes as well.

In all honesty, McLaren's problems for the last few years can be pinned down to 2009. They started with such a bad car and had to catch-up. That cost them in 2010 as well although they were closer than they should have been thanks to Red Bull's reliability problems and Vettel still a little weak. 2011 was the exhaust issue that cost them their pre-season, 2012 was reliability.

Except for Lewis going off the rails a little in 2011 - and he still won the same number of races as Jenson - very little can be blamed on the drivers.

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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Formula One Discussion
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2013, 12:43  
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Yeah, 2007 is an odd year. If they backed Fernando at Indy and if lewis' side didnt go and protest about hungary (which I still say and as bias as I may be, was lewis' own fault), he wouldve won. if lewis was brought in instead stupidly kept out, Lewis wouldve won. If Alonso didnt get hit by the Toro rosso in Japan he wouldn't have crashed out later on, if he didnt have those strange excursions in Canada he wouldve won. Its all subjective, but 2007 was just such a silly year.

2008 is a tale of two views. On the one hand, lewis is lucky to win the championship. if it wasn't for the fact his Rival was Massa, who crashed out of Australia using DC as a pinball machine and Malaysia out the leads, along with his cruel engine failure, Lewis wouldve lost. But then massa was only in contention because lewis kept getting penalties. I agree with all but 1 of the penalties, but the Spa penalty was totally justified.

So how do you view 2008? Lucky Massa was in contention at all, or lucky lewis for only just beating Massa? I wouldnt say the F2008 was the better car id say both were equal. lewis' failures came from his mistakes just like Massa's, its just massa made 2 at the start, lewis ended up with 4 or 5. Japan stood out for me. Lewis didnt seem to have any fightback in him yet Massa was a totally different driver.

You could say Mclarens problems were in 2009, but 2010 they were fine. What cost them in 2010 was Lewis' mistakes. he lost a certain 3rd place in Monza and a certain 3rd place in Singapore; 30 points that cost him. He was only 16 behind Vettel. He also made a mistake in Korea costing him the race win so thats 37 points he lost. Alonso never made a race ending error; he just had the engine failure in Malaysia and had floor, diffuser and rear suspension damage after that whack from Barrichello in Spa. Screwed up in Monaco though. Vettel had his Turkey brain fade but that was it.

2012 was totally not his fault, Mclaren cost him about 100 points. But to me, Mclaren has got rid of the one driver who can drive around problems. Jenson did well in 2011; and he gelled with the car. 2010 he was poor and 2012 he was very poor.

its still hard to think that Lewis only has 1 championship, and it wasn't a convincing win either. I dont think Lewis will win another WDC. I dont know why, I just dont think he will do it.
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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Formula One Discussion
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2013, 15:02  
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He will, and so is Alonso (probably this year). The main problem not having multiple WDC combo just like Schumacher or Vettel (3 in a row), IMO is all about team problem, and not a driver problem. Hamilton Alonso Vettel and Kimi, are all worthy champion driver, and probably still some other driver yet to show their worth of a champion.

It's quite a strong point from phil, Mclaren hasn't won another WCC for a long time, which is quite strange and weird, and probably two first driver in f1 is just trully not working. They just consistently fighting for championship, yet nothing to show as a big ambition (let's say like: let's do whatever it takes to win this year championship, with just focusing on things for 1 driver, or 1 driver's point of view/perspective). What they always do is about equality and not focusing on things, and probably that is the biggest Mclaren problems for many years...

2007 was weird enough, Kimi was fast, but he himself didn't have any confidence or mindset to win a championship, until the last race when Hamilton had his gearbox problem for a while (which wass pretty WEIRD... like someone made it so).. But 2007 I think should have been Hamilton's year, Gearbox problem for a while seems pretty strange for me, and he should have won the championship by maintaining his position, and I think he could have done that. Throwing Alonso on 2007 just simply silly though, I agree with that. Mclaren had done such a huge mistake on their driver, and like what you said, they lost 3 fast driver: Kimi, Alonso, and Hamilton. Actually 2007, Mclaren had greatest pair driver of all teams, had they focus on Alonso, Hamilton probably not able to show his pace as a worthy champion, yes that probably true, but fast driver would always be spotted, and sometimes would beat his teammate even he is just a number two driver. So probably 2007 was Hamilton fate to have him time to show how good he is on 2008 onwards in Mclaren. But another silly mistakes of Mclaren, losing another one fast driver in 2013. It's just utterly stupid. I think Mclaren will struggle until many years ahead if they cannot find another top driver. Perez for me just an ordinary kid, he simply in the podium because of alternative strategy (which is sometimes it works better than the conservative). I would still rate Kobayashi higher than Perez, in many many ways. So Perez, for me, doesn't deserve a seat in Mclaren, let's see how he perform in 2013...
Mclaren will go on 2013 onwards in darker days...
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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Formula One Discussion
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2013, 15:47  
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mikhailv wrote:
So how do you view 2008? Lucky Massa was in contention at all, or lucky lewis for only just beating Massa? I wouldnt say the F2008 was the better car id say were equal. lewis' failures came from his mistakes just like Massa's, its just massa made 2 at the start, lewis ended up with 4 or 5. Japan stood out for me. Lewis didnt seem to have any fightback in him yet Massa was a totally different driver.


Overall I think Lewis edges it - he was fortunate that Massa made some errors and so did Ferrari. Equally there were some ridiculous penalties that swung it Massa's way (Spa, Fuji was just absurd).

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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Formula One Discussion
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2013, 16:11  
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In 2008 Lewis was far and away the better driver. That is not to say Massa wasn't deserving, he certainly was but Lewis was the appropriate winner.
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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Formula One Discussion
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2013, 16:17  
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With McLaren, I look at their driver line-up now and to me it seems to be perhaps the weakest of the top 5.

You've got one world champion at each of the top 5 teams: Vettel, Alonso, Button, Raikkonen, Hamilton. Out of those lot, it seems harsh but Button would be either my fourth of fifth choice if you offered him to me. He's by no means a bad driver, in fact he can be utterly sensational. But that only happens a few times a year - his operating window is so small. Then out of the 'number two' drivers you have Webber, Massa, Perez, Grosjean and Rosberg. Now out of those 5 Perez is obviously the unknown. Webber will have 2 or 3 races of being brilliant and then a bit average in the rest, Massa should be consistently in the points, Grosjean will be supremely fast but make some silly errors, while Rosberg can show flashes of speed. But if you offered me one of those Number 2s for 2013 - and 2013 alone - I'd be hard pressed to choose Perez over Webber, Grosjean or Rosberg. Even Massa. Therefore for me, McLaren needs a car that's about 0.3-0.4s/lap quicker than anything else in my opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Formula One Discussion
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2013, 16:29  
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I believe that this year McLaren's drivers will perform similarly to 2002. Then Kimi was the unknown and DC was solid. That year DC finished ahead of Kimi but the paddock was talking of the Finn's impressive season, whereas DC was largely ignored.
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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Formula One Discussion
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2013, 16:41  
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kals wrote:
I believe that this year McLaren's drivers will perform similarly to 2002. Then Kimi was the unknown and DC was solid. That year DC finished ahead of Kimi but the paddock was talking of the Finn's impressive season, whereas DC was largely ignored.


That's quite a good shout. My issue is that whereas in 2002 McLaren was always second or third best behind a dominant Ferrari, McLaren in 2013 could easily find themselves 5th. Perez could easily qualifying 0.3s down on Button - no huge deal - but in such a competitive season that might mean 10th on the grid.

There's going to be a lot of pressure on 'Checo' this season - I really hope he copes with it.

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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Formula One Discussion
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2013, 16:47  
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There's going to be a lot more pressure on Button now as...

- Hamilton (the supposed faster driver and team "darling") is gone
- Perez has joined and has zero history with the team, but is known to be very quick
- Jenson is now the senior figure and will be expected to be McLaren's sole challenger for the title
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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Formula One Discussion
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2013, 16:51  
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It's peculiar with Jenson, because he can be a right bastard yet he always comes out smelling of roses. He's a nice guy, which is I guess why that happens.

I just don't think Whitmarsh is right at McLaren. I see him as doing a good job, but not as team principal. Something at that team needed shaking up, but losing Lewis and Paddy Lowe was perhaps the worst thing to happen. McLaren needed to do more - not just in terms of racing, but behind the scenes - to convince Lewis he was their #1 for the next few years. They couldn't do that and it's to their detriment.

Supposedly Sauber was pretty unimpressed with Perez towards the end of 2012 in terms of commitment, but according to Autosport he's bucked up and put in the commitment over the winter.

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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Formula One Discussion
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2013, 17:04  
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I think you'll find that Perez did everything he could at Sauber to showcase the talent he's got. And then when Ferrari said no and McLaren said yes he felt didn't need to prove anything anymore and his performances go some way to agree with that.

Whitmarsh hasn't done a good job at McLaren since being handed the reigns by Dennis. Not a good job at all. That's like saying Nick Fry did a good job when Brawn won the titles in 2009. Whitmarsh mismanaged the relationship with Lewis to a very poor extent and instead helped to alienate him. In 2012, despite having the best car at the start of the season Whitmarsh allowed poor pitstop management to be a continual theme and when they recorded the quickest pitstop of all time, lauded his team's effectiveness and speed.... forgetting how many points had been lost up until that point... then there was Barcelona...
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 Post subject: Re: 2013 Formula One Discussion
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2013, 19:29  
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phil1993 wrote:
mikhailv wrote:
So how do you view 2008? Lucky Massa was in contention at all, or lucky lewis for only just beating Massa? I wouldnt say the F2008 was the better car id say were equal. lewis' failures came from his mistakes just like Massa's, its just massa made 2 at the start, lewis ended up with 4 or 5. Japan stood out for me. Lewis didnt seem to have any fightback in him yet Massa was a totally different driver.


Overall I think Lewis edges it - he was fortunate that Massa made some errors and so did Ferrari. Equally there were some ridiculous penalties that swung it Massa's way (Spa, Fuji was just absurd).


See I agree with the Spa penalty though.

But 2008 is tough. id give it..... Massa, but when you look back, lewis' Penalties were certainly overuled by the complete unfathomable luck he had in Monaco and how Massa's engine failed and Singapore debacle. Its like, subtract Massa's 1st two mistakes, the rest of the season he was truly better. lewis was faster, but he was quite erratic and incurred too many deserved penalties. It was a rubbish year to be honest. Kimi was nowhere and the only driver capable of beating Lewis threw his strop and cost himself probably 2 WDC in the process. Its hard to think lewis only beat massa who crashed out the first 2 races, was terrible in Britain, scored nothing in singapore and had an engine failure in the lead of Hungary. so thats 6 races he failed to score yet lewis still made a real meal out of it. Still forget that massa won a 3rd of the races that year.
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