McLaren-Mercedes | MP4-28 | Jenson and 'Checo'

[kals]

And with Perez, subtract his 3 podiums which you rate more than me, What other performances can you say are at that level you see?

Let me flip this question over, what would it take for Perez (or any other driver in fact) to impress you?

Hulkenberg. after a year out and adjustment he was consistently punching above his weight, consistently scoring, consistently better than his teammate. Both him and perez made crucial mistake in fighting for the lead which is understandable. But Hulkenberg was much more consistent with his equipment.

So we'll have to agree to disagree here. From what I saw Hulkenberg was largely anonymous for the majority of the year, and only started beating Di Resta in the final 1/3 of the season. Hulk was mightily impressive in that last part of the season, but I'd put that on par with Perez' early season performances and Monza.

[kals]

With Korea 2010, there was no way Lewis was going to hold on - his tyres were utterly shot.

Agreed. And lets not forget that Hamilton lost points back in Australia after getting hit by Webber late in the race.

Lets also not forget that Vettel made driving errors at Silverstone, Germany and Hungary which cost him points.

[mikhailv]

he had damage which would affect aero, especially in the wet. Very similar actually to when he was caught by the Toro Rosso in Japan 2007.

[Ether]

Hulkenberg quite impressive lately, and I think it was only specifically in Brazil. But I don't think he is quite a worthy driver to be put on par with top drivers like Alonso, Lewis, Vettel, or Kimi, even he is quite a newbie. I think Hulkenberg is a good driver, which potentially might be a worthy 2nd driver in top teams like Mclaren, RB, or Ferrari, but not now, he needs morre experiences and consistency of being fast enough in all tracks. Funny enough to think that IMO Button is also suitable to be considered as 2nd driver, his 2009 champion was for me just a lucky moment in an extraordinary fast car of Brawn in early GPs.

But yes, I think Hulkenberg should be a better pick for Mclaren than Perez..

[kals]

Alonso's exit from the 2010 Belgian GP was down to a driving error. He put too much of his car on the wet curbs and spun. Simple as.

[mikhailv]

With Korea 2010, there was no way Lewis was going to hold on - his tyres were utterly shot.

Yeah thats true. China 2007 all over again.

With Korea 2010, there was no way Lewis was going to hold on - his tyres were utterly shot.

Agreed. And lets not forget that Hamilton lost points back in Australia after getting hit by Webber late in the race.

Lets also not forget that Vettel made driving errors at Silverstone, Germany and Hungary which cost him points.

And lewis gained points by skipping the safety car in Valencia and having a get out of jail card, so thats swings and round abouts. Vettel had a puncture in silverstone, Vettel didnt make any driving errors in Germany, Hungary was a stupid penalty over a safety car lines and lengths which still wasnt clarified in 2011 with Schumacher vs Alonso. So you cant count Germany, Hungary or Silverstone at all (cant believe i'm defending vettel!) Everyone made mistakes in 2010, but Lewis' mistakes came at a time where everyone else settled down and weren't making mistakes and were winning races/in a position to capitalise on failures.

And Hulkenberg had a year out in 2011, was with Williams in 2010 and took a shock pole position in Brazil. Hulkenberg adjusted to the Force india, and in the 2nd half of the season when he got to grips with the car from Europe onwards, Hulkenberg scored 56 points. Di Resta? 25 points. Out qualified Di resta 12-7 (even though he didnt participate in Monza Q1), and scored 11 races to Di Resta's 8 races.

[mikhailv]

Alonso's exit from the 2010 Belgian GP was down to a driving error. He put too much of his car on the wet curbs and spun. Simple as.

So the fact he had diffuser and rear suspension damage, in the wet, doesn't mean a thing then by your knowledge? Funny that. Seeing as you lose a large amount of aerodynamic downforce which you need. He was struggling all throughout the race with the car.

[phil1993]

We're going a little off-topic, let's stick to the issue of McLaren in 2013

[kals]

With Korea 2010, there was no way Lewis was going to hold on - his tyres were utterly shot.

Agreed. And lets not forget that Hamilton lost points back in Australia after getting hit by Webber late in the race.

Lets also not forget that Vettel made driving errors at Silverstone, Germany and Hungary which cost him points.

And lewis gained points by skipping the safety car in Valencia and having a get out of jail card, so thats swings and round abouts. Vettel had a puncture in silverstone, Vettel didnt make any driving errors in Germany, Hungary was a stupid penalty over a safety car lines and lengths which still wasnt clarified in 2011 with Schumacher vs Alonso. So you cant count Germany, Hungary or Silverstone at all (cant believe i'm defending vettel!) Everyone made mistakes in 2010, but Lewis' mistakes came at a time where everyone else settled down and weren't making mistakes and were winning races/in a position to capitalise on failures.

And Hulkenberg had a year out in 2011, was with Williams in 2010 and took a shock pole position in Brazil. Hulkenberg adjusted to the Force india, and in the 2nd half of the season when he got to grips with the car from Europe onwards, Hulkenberg scored 56 points. Di Resta? 25 points. Out qualified Di resta 12-7 (even though he didnt participate in Monza Q1), and scored 11 races to Di Resta's 8 races.

- At Silverstone it was Vettel's start that lead to the puncture
- At Germany it was Vettel's start that cost him points
- At Hungary he made a mistake behind the safety car

As for Hulkenberg, you're basically proving my point.

As for you other comment regarding Alonso I think you need to choose your words a little more carefully as you're coming across pretty rude. My knowledge is not something to be questionned. If you want to have an adult conversation, let's do so. Otherwise keep your childish remarks to yourself please.

@Phil - yeah we've gone a little off the McLaren topic haven't we.

[mikhailv]

So what did he do to cause himself a puncture? Same with Germany, he fought for the lead of the race, thats not a race ending mistake or going off track, thats fighting and losing a position. He made a mistake behind the safety and got a penalty which was ridiculous.

And why was that rude? Im saying, by your knowledge, there wouldve been no effect to the damage caused by Rubens seeing as you refuse to acknowledge the point. No childish remark at all, im questioning your ability in refusing to accept the effect of said damage. Suspension and diffuser damage, wet race, struggling with the car throughout after the incident; doesnt make any difference? If thats questioning your knowledge, then yes I fully question it.

And with Hulkenberg, yeah i've proved your point. Scored double the points of his team mate, outqualified and outscored him, even though he had a bad start which could be put down to adapting to a new car after a year out of the sport.

[kals]

And why was that rude? Im saying, by your knowledge...

This...

So the fact he had diffuser and rear suspension damage, in the wet, doesn't mean a thing then by your knowledge?

...which is a pathetic attempt to patronise my point of view, which you've then gone and done again.

...there wouldve been no effect to the damage caused by Rubens seeing as you refuse to acknowledge the point.

And while you're being rude again with your poor choice of words, perhaps you should look over this...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86263

...which is the post race comments by Alonso, Domenicalli and Dyer. Strangely, none of whom mention damage being the cause of Alonso's retirement and in fact, Fernando says this...

"Then I went off the track, when I went over a kerb and that was my race over"

....so much for "my knowledge"...

As for the other comments, I'm not going to go into any further discussion with you about any of these factors. What ever I say, you'll attempt in a petty manner to dispute them without any real credibility.

[mikhailv]

You call my credibility yet you refuse to acknowledge the affect on wet weather stability of diffuser and suspension damage? That makes sense.

Fact is, you refuse to acknowledge that very point. So i question question your knowledge because anyone would know they would have profound effects. Same story with Japan 07. He caught vettels STR and damaged his rear making him lose aero and he later aquaplanned after losing serious pace.

Now you can try the moral high ground route but it doesnt wash. You can quote what was said about going over the kerb and losing it. Now go find the quote regarding loss of pace and stability causing an unpredictable car. But wait, your refusal to accept that point means your credibility is lost. Same could be said with your opinion over fac regarding Hulkenberg, perez and your insinuation on Whitmarsh too.

Credibility? You cant even give a basis for vettel causing his own puncture in silverstone, for fighting for the lead and losing it on a race start which you class as a mistake which is utterly insane to say, and that the safety car debacle was vettels mistake contrary to the team saying he was fine and many of the paddock saying it was stupid.

You want mature debate, look at your own posts too.

[kals]

I repost this part of my post then I'll step away from this conversation.

...perhaps you should look over this...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86263

...which is the post race comments by Alonso, Domenicalli and Dyer. Strangely, none of whom mention damage being the cause of Alonso's retirement and in fact, Fernando says this...

"Then I went off the track, when I went over a kerb and that was my race over"

Please read the article which says NOTHING about Alonso's retirement being linked to damage from his incident with Barrichello. Your original point was about that accident causing damage to Alonso's aerodynamics which ultimately caused him to crash out of the race. That's it.

Regarding the other points...

- Silverstone, Vettel weaved off the line to block Webber and as he entered the first corner failed to leave sufficient room for Hamilton and the two made minor contant. When the tyre deflated Vettel stayed on the gas rather than backing out carefully, costing himself lots of time
- Germany, much like Silverstone Vettel weaved off the line to block Alonso and instead let both Massa and Alonso past. Harsh but still needless weaving
- Hungary, every driver knows the safety car rules and while the penalty was harsh it was entirely fair. A silly mistake

And by the way, there is no time when we're all going to agree but questionning someone's knowledge and continually patronising them is pretty rude and very pathetic. But I'm fine with that, just don't get upset when someone answers you in the same manner. Just because I don't agree with your point of view DOES NOT give you the right to attack me or question my knowledge, which you know little to nothing about.

[Ether]

Great video, but I think it should be moved to general formula one discussion, because it's off topic to Mclaren, Jenson, or Checo.

[Ether]

Just read this interview in : http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1/new ... ichael-Q-A

Now Lewis has left McLaren, people have said that the team will design a car to suit Jenson Button's needs. How much input does a driver have in the design of a car?
SM: "The driver's most important input is telling what the balance is and what the changes are. When it comes to driveability and transient responses in the car, the driver's input is still quite important. You don't need a driver to say more downforce makes you go faster, more power, more grip. But when you change the car's handling characteristics, or the way it warms its tyres up, for example, that's where you need the driver. And a driver of Jenson's experience is pretty important. He's got a lot more experience than Lewis has - he's done more seat hours - and this is his 14th season.

"It's those areas that they help contribute on and you can't underestimate as well the football mentality side of things: they're there to motivate and inspire and gee up the engineers and mechanics. We're humans and if a driver can talk on different levels, about his life and what his aspirations are and say, 'Come on guys I really want to win this race' then that motivates people to push harder.

"They're a figurehead and will always be more inspirational than an engineer. We've got 600 people in our company and what everything each person does is ultimately on the shoulders of two drivers. We've got this massive funnel to these two guys and because of that, you've got a lot of emphasis on what they think and feel."



It's pretty funny that Sam didn't really mention about how lewis' works for 6 years in Mclaren, and now praising Button like a God coming to the team. It maybe true that Jenson has proven to be the most valuable assets in the team, but they forgot one thing that Lewis' should be the one to concern about, because they just lost one of the best driver on the grid! The conversation might be diplomatic, but I can see disrespect of Lewis after 6 years of service, and giving 1 WDC in 2008 for Mclaren.. Oh yeah, but It is quite funny that actually Hamilton hasn't got any trophies yet (because he couldn't keep the trophies back in Mclaren). I got annoyed with this comment, and it's funny that Sam who only join his 1st year in Mclaren is saying those words...