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 Post subject: Re: 2012-13 Silly Season
PostPosted: 30 Jul 2012, 18:29  
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timos problem is that nobody saw him good enough to hire over pay drivers. I mean development and pay drivers almost fill the midfield dont they.

Renault had Kubica so Glock wouldnt go; Renau needed money. Merc was Germany F1. The rest development and pay....
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 Post subject: Re: 2012-13 Silly Season
PostPosted: 30 Jul 2012, 19:28  
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Glock was offered the second Renault seat alongside Kubica at the end of 2009 but turned it down due to Renault's uncertain commitment.

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 Post subject: Re: 2012-13 Silly Season
PostPosted: 30 Jul 2012, 19:41  
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phil1993 wrote:
Glock was offered the second Renault seat alongside Kubica at the end of 2009 but turned it down due to Renault's uncertain commitment.



Yus. The lost alot of budget after 08 hence why Alonso took a big paycut. Exacerbated by the crashgate, ING leaving and Genii taking over and are still in large debt....
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 Post subject: Re: 2012-13 Silly Season
PostPosted: 30 Jul 2012, 19:48  
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Precisely. It's why Lotus could really do with 2nd or 3rd this year rather than 5th - it's a substantial difference in prize money.

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 Post subject: Re: 2012-13 Silly Season
PostPosted: 31 Jul 2012, 17:45  
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phil1993 wrote:
Precisely. It's why Lotus could really do with 2nd or 3rd this year rather than 5th - it's a substantial difference in prize money.


I can see ferrari in 4th, Mclaren winning with RB 2nd/Lotus 3rd.

Lotus if they keep up the performance, could steal 2nd from RB. But ferrari is a one car team. problem is lotus are too finicky in the weather and just cant seem to string driver consistency AND strategy AND qualifying in one race, its always split, one driver does one thing but keeps making mistakes, other had a poor quali lap but flew in the race; team lets both down regardless.
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 Post subject: Re: 2012-13 Silly Season
PostPosted: 31 Jul 2012, 19:18  
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Yeah, everything just hasn't come together over the weekend. But we have Spa (Kimi-Land), then a series of races that in theory should be hot... and Lotus is bringing a huge upgrade supposedly.

I still reckon Red Bull will win the WDC though.

Ferrari is so good reliably. Their only mechanical retirement since Germany 2009 was Felipe Massa in last year's Spanish GP. That's phenomenal. Alonso's advantage is his rivals will take points off of each other. It'll be close!

---

Regarding Williams, both drivers bring hefty sponsorship packages. Williams finished 9th last year so either way they will receive a bigger income from prize money than 2011. I'm sure the contract with PDVSA says that the team must have a Venezuelan racing driver and heading into 2013, Pastor Maldonado is still best placed.

So it's Senna/Bottas for the second seat...

I'd quite like to see Charles Pic get a run in a midfield team. I like Kamui Kobayashi but I think his development has peaked.

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 Post subject: Re: 2012-13 Silly Season
PostPosted: 06 Aug 2012, 04:54  
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IMO Perez and Kobayashi I think is a very good driver, for those who tink they just a good or average driver must think carefully. I think Kobayashi and Perez are equal in performance, with different approach, Kamui on aggressive and fast drive, meanwhile Perez on softer style and tyre saving. But both I think has better driving skill if we compare them to Midclass driver like: Glock, Sutil, Kovalainen, Trulli, and so on. Actually, Sauber has chosen both a very good driver and low cost (low salary budget compare to their skills). So when Sauber actually don't deliver a race win, it actually is not the driver incompetence (or lack of driver skill), but it actually the car itself is not as fast as front runners..

Let's be realistic though, small team like Sauber with a low cost, I think they had done a maximum job right now, in a podium is the highest achievement so far, and I think it already a marvelous job.. Not delivering a win so far is for me something that is normal, and not a wrong driver option. Kamui and Perez are both very good. For me, they could only be beaten by top class driver like Alonso and Hamilton. But I do think they have the skill to be comparative with Kimi, Vettel, Webber, Rosberg, Schumi (in mercedes era), Grosjean (he just need more experience just like Perez), and even Button.

It cannot be compared right now because Sauber never had any good comparison. We know that DLR was lined up with Kamui, and he was totally destructed by the Japanese. And we could easily know how the difference. I know DLR is not a good racing driver, he just... test driver. He's been so long with Mclaren test driver, and probably he wasn't that fast. But I remember once race in Bahrain, when one of Mclaren driver got substituted by him, and he could deliver not so bad results... So we know exactly how he could be compared to top drivers...
Then Heidfeild come to substitute DLR and he also got totally destructed by the Japanese as well. So IMO Kamui is a very fast and good driver, he could easily be spotted as a star that time, but I think big teams never see that anyway, because he is just a Japanese driver with no sponsors right now.

Perez on the other hand, also a very good driver! A rising star as well. To be compared with Kamui, actually Perez is a future star. But you must rate them very high because I think Sauber car is not as fast as Williams car at the moment. But they both could deliver much better result that how it actually seems... We might think they have a good car, faster than FI, Williams, and STR, and even try to be faster than Merc, but actually I think the car isn't good enough yet to deliver a win! As to Pastor win in Spain, I must say he is fast and Williams was amazingly fast on first few races, but probably his win just becoming too soon, and being cocky and clumsy he wouldn't be a better driver than Perez. On the other hand, I must say Senna make a very good progress, but Pastor has more talent than Senna.

The conclusion here is, It would be a very awkward and clumsy move by Sauber if they change Kamui into other driver like Kovalainen, Glock, Sutil, or Alguersuari (hey, we haven't mention him any bit didn't we?), because those driver, I think wouldn't be able to deliver the same performance as Kamui.. As to Perez, he surely will go to Ferrari soon, in 2013 or 2014 I don't care, but he is a rising star. (Actually it will be a pity that if he becoming number 2 in Ferrari later, because he is young and fighting world champion Alonso). So, to substitute Perez later, I would say Sauber would chose a cheaper driver, maybe young ones.. So it could probably be Alguersuari.


I actually hope Kamui could get a better seat than in Sauber. Sauber is a midfield team, and I don't really think they really had the ambition to go on top right now as we can see how the budgeting goes. But hey, they actually are the best team IMO because to manage such thing would be a great challenge, I think they had done the maximum this year, and it will be harder to achieve more than what they achieve right now. Because the top teams has the craziest budgeting ever just to gain few tenths or few hundredths of a seconds, and I don't think they're on it. Sauber had been so long in competition, and they are midfield teams. Never expect them to compete in the top teams.
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 Post subject: Re: 2012-13 Silly Season
PostPosted: 06 Aug 2012, 18:35  
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Ether wrote:
I know DLR is not a good racing driver, he just... test driver. .


He is known for being a test driver, but he's been brilliant this year. Huge asset to HRT.

I just feel with Kamui that there's not much more potential to be extracted. He's a good racing driver, but I can't see him as a future champion. Race winner? Possibly. I put him on the Kovalainen sort-of level, if not a bit lower...

I only just realised that Toto Wolff has a vested interest in Valtteri Bottas, much like Eric Bouiller with Romain Grosjean. He denies it'll have an impact on their choice for 2013...

The reality is we have about 3 drivers more than there are seats. That's not taking into account anyone from GP2 or FR3.5. It's an issue, no doubt about it. Drivers are extending their careers and simply aren't retiring. Only 24 seats when there's probably 30 or 35 guys deserving of it. 3 car teams I say!

Adrian Sutil, Jaime Alguersuari, Jules Bianchi, Sam Bird, Robin Frijns are all very good racing drivers. I mean, Romain Grosjean has been bloody brilliant this season and he didn't have a seat last year. Lots of drivers are missing out which isn't good for F1.

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 Post subject: Re: 2012-13 Silly Season
PostPosted: 07 Aug 2012, 01:45  
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I think it's time for the old to retire and let the young be in F1.. Let's say, Schumi and Webber, DLR also old, and probably Kartikeyan is too underperformed, he just got hired because of money. HRT is a complete joke right now, but I don't know for some years later.

I think F1 career now is becoming shorter in career, getting 35 years old older and that will be gone from the radar already, as to so many young drivers very keen to get in F1 car. It's still unclear yet who will replace Schumi if he will retire next year, but if not, it will just continue the queue of young driver to go to F1.
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 Post subject: Re: 2012-13 Silly Season
PostPosted: 07 Aug 2012, 01:57  
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Kamui IMO is a champion if he were to be in a competitive team. He could deliver more performance on the car than it normally did. If he got chance to be in top teams, let's say not Mclaren or Ferrari or RB, but in Merc or Lotus I bet he could have more chances to win races, and probably he may improve since then, and probably worth of a world champion few years later.
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 Post subject: Re: 2012-13 Silly Season
PostPosted: 07 Aug 2012, 02:41  
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phil1993 wrote:
I only just realised that Toto Wolff has a vested interest in Valtteri Bottas, much like Eric Bouiller with Romain Grosjean. He denies it'll have an impact on their choice for 2013...



Eek this team principal/manager etc./driver connection. :roll::
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 Post subject: Re: 2012-13 Silly Season
PostPosted: 08 Aug 2012, 10:08  
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Ether wrote:
I think it's time for the old to retire and let the young be in F1.. Let's say, Schumi and Webber, DLR also old, and probably Kartikeyan is too underperformed, he just got hired because of money. HRT is a complete joke right now, but I don't know for some years later.

I think F1 career now is becoming shorter in career, getting 35 years old older and that will be gone from the radar already, as to so many young drivers very keen to get in F1 car. It's still unclear yet who will replace Schumi if he will retire next year, but if not, it will just continue the queue of young driver to go to F1.


Had to laugh. Believe it or not, Schumacher is the oldest followed by De la Rosa, then its Karthikeyan, Webber, Button, Kimi, Alonso, Massa, Timo, Heikki.

So the older crew, are mostly, the top drivers. Well, aside from Schumacher and Massa, there are no top drives or midfield drivers free for the youngsters. Karth/PDR are HRT. Webber, Button, Alonso and Kimi are top drivers at the top of their games. Timo has given up and like Heikki; back of the grid.

So the older drivers, ARE the ones fighting for the championship. Rosberg and Hammy are both 27, Grosjean 26 and Vettel is 25. So the top 4 teams, 8 drivers, only 3 out of 8 are below 30. They say age and experience is better. So we cant get rid of the older drivers, theyre the best in the world!

But it also speaks volumes about the younger drivers. No offence, but when you look at Alguesari, Buemi, Petrov, Pic, Maldanado, Senna, Hulkenberg, Di Resta, Kobayashi, Ricciardo and Vergne..... they just dont look like future champions. Perez is a possibility out of the rest of the grid, but aside from perez, yeah Maldanado may win another race or get kicked out. But the rest of the drivers dont look special. Theres nothing that makes them stand out. Maybe Di Resta might win a race one day but hes has shown no champion qualities.

The field, unlike Vettel, Unlike Alonso, Kimi, Michael, Ayrton, Alain.... when they started out, they all had stand out performances, giant killing performances and they stood out. None of the current grid do that apart from Perez.

So do we need to make room from the older drivers, or do we need better youngsters up and coming? hard to think Kobayashi has never got a podium, but Perez has two already and nearly took the win on pure merit of driving sublime and not making a mistake. Well, apart from Malaysia.
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 Post subject: Re: 2012-13 Silly Season
PostPosted: 08 Aug 2012, 10:16  
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How can you judge Charles Pic in that PoS Marussia..?

Going to play devil's advocate a little bit. I don't believe a lot of young drivers are future world champions, but it's so difficult to show yourself sometimes unless you have a top car. As has been said a lot of times, the rain is a great leveller. Nico Hulkenberg doesn't do badly when the rain falls... I'd agree with you regarding some drivers - Buemi, Petrov, Kobayashi. I rate Vergne highly, but I feel young drivers get thrown in with far too little experience sometimes...

Similarly, when Jenson was getting his arse handed to him on a fortnightly basis by Fisichella in 2001, did he look like a future race winner and champion? Some drivers need time to turn out and become a great champion.

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 Post subject: Re: 2012-13 Silly Season
PostPosted: 08 Aug 2012, 13:49  
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Well you seem to have judged that he's brilliant. :p

Seriously though, I agree he's doing a very good job given the circumstances. Hope he'll be the first Virgin / Marussia rookie not to disappear off the grid after a season!

On the topic of young drivers, I see they've dropped the mid-season test and aren't moving it back to a pre-season one as the teams decided three tests is enough to get a new car ready. Fair enough, but it means even less testing for rookies which is a bit of a problem.

Drivers being thrown in with too little experience seems to be a bit of a Red Bull thing! Marko probably expects them all to have immediate success like Vettel. :p

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 Post subject: Re: 2012-13 Silly Season
PostPosted: 08 Aug 2012, 13:49  
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phil1993 wrote:
How can you judge Charles Pic in that PoS Marussia..?

Going to play devil's advocate a little bit. I don't believe a lot of young drivers are future world champions, but it's so difficult to show yourself sometimes unless you have a top car. As has been said a lot of times, the rain is a great leveller. Nico Hulkenberg doesn't do badly when the rain falls... I'd agree with you regarding some drivers - Buemi, Petrov, Kobayashi. I rate Vergne highly, but I feel young drivers get thrown in with far too little experience sometimes...

Similarly, when Jenson was getting his arse handed to him on a fortnightly basis by Fisichella in 2001, did he look like a future race winner and champion? Some drivers need time to turn out and become a great champion.


I judge Pic as a potential race winner, but not a Champion. I think the problem isnt always their skill, its the fact that Teams dont take an interest. They dont see much in them. Ferrari still say Perez is abit to wet around the ears and needs more experience, which is half true, but putting him in the ferrari will be better than Massa. But would going against Alonso crush him like it did Grosjean the first time round.

We say drivers are thrown in with too little experience, but hasnt that always been the case? I mean, 19 years old Alonso was, Vettel the same. Was Kimi 20? And they did shine. Japan and Brazil for Alonso, Vettels storming wet weather drivers, Kimi was awsome in the sauber and was snapped up immediately, regardless of experience. Same with Alonso. Renault took him and did him a test driver year, Kimi went to Mclaren as they saw something, Montoya jumped straight into Williams didnt he? Vettel was promoted after a single year at STR, something no other STR driver ever had. Talent does shine through early on but it needs to capitalised straight away.

Button is such a hard case. he had some awsome drives with williams, Benetton he was ok, Renault he was Ok, BAR he was allright, 2004 he got his first podium in a superb race. But its just like, all the way until Brawn button didnt really show any consistent brilliance. In the wet, yeah. But he sempt to be, well, in no mands land alot of the time. He was great in Imola 2005 and unfortunate BAR was cheating, but that dont detract from his superb drive.

But its weird. Because what was Button stand out years? 2007 you could say he showed his mettle with a bad car. 2009 at the start he was immense, but when the car went bad he wasnt good and was out performed by Rubens. The whole car doesnt suit him surely has to be a fact now doesnt it? He can be best of the best if its all perfect but if theres a bit of a wobble or something wrong, he can be dire. Which its really annoying because I like Button lol!

Its like, Mclaren takes two champions, Ferrari hired Alonso and Massa, RB still wanted a very experienced driver, and mercedes wanted experience and a youngster. So in the top 4 teams, infact 5 teams, theres at least a champion and an inexperienced driver in Lotus. Rosbeg is in his 7th year now (GOD that feels weird to write. Seems yesterday he set the fastest lap in Bahrain 2006!).

So the only places, younger drivers can go is FI, Williams and Sauber. theyre basically the top teams to goto for a newbie.
So theres just no room really
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