No it has not been and it is not. Lotto is and has been about money. If it were, Toyota would have won CWC and WDC. In eight years they put close to two billions to F1 and their best results was once 4th, couple of times 5th and 6th. Motorsport is about building the best team, the best car, having the best strategy and team work, competition between teams and drivers, talent against talent, winning and losing for the glory - and money is not about it. Money helps but it does not do the magic. For small teams money is about living or dying when they try to balance on the edge of survival but even Ferrari and Mercedes have started to wonder where the limit is. Huge budgets doesn't make the sport or bring happiness. That's what Toyota, Honda and BMW found out and even Renault left regardless of being a successful team.phil1993 wrote:The sport is better now than it has been. Well, maybe 5 years ago was better. Because of huge budgeted manufacturer teams.
F1 has always been about money.
2012-13 Silly Season
Re: 2012-13 Silly Season
Re: 2012-13 Silly Season
Fangio's career was funded by the Argentine government.
Lauda had to take out a massive loan.
Schumacher scrambled $150,000 for his Jordan debut.
Lauda had to take out a massive loan.
Schumacher scrambled $150,000 for his Jordan debut.
Re: 2012-13 Silly Season
So. That doesn't make F1 about money. We see it differently. Enzo Ferrari did not get into motorsport because of money but because he lived for racing. Ferrari used to manufacture and sell cars to fund racing. Funding must come somewhere otherwise there would not be F1 or other motorsport either. Of course drivers have always had some support from somewhere to get into racing and Michael Schumacher didn't even know at the time that Peter Sauber paid Jordan for his debut. But F1 doesn't run around money and it is a bad target for investments (wonder what Genii was thinking). Now small teams and poor drivers are suffering because of the economical situation. That's why there are so many so called pay drivers in the series now and Heikki is out.phil1993 wrote:Fangio's career was funded by the Argentine government.
Lauda had to take out a massive loan.
Schumacher scrambled $150,000 for his Jordan debut.
Re: 2012-13 Silly Season
He lived for racing, and in turn used his Formula 1 heritage to sell cars, he sold cars to go racing, he went racing to sell more cars to go racing even more :Preppo wrote:So. That doesn't make F1 about money. We see it differently. Enzo Ferrari did not get into motorsport because of money but because he lived for racing. Ferrari used to manufacture and sell cars to fund racing. Funding must come somewhere otherwise there would not be F1 or other motorsport either. Of course drivers have always had some support from somewhere to get into racing and Michael Schumacher didn't even know at the time that Peter Sauber paid Jordan for his debut. But F1 doesn't run around money and it is a bad target for investments (wonder what Genii was thinking). Now small teams and poor drivers are suffering because of the economical situation. That's why there are so many so called pay drivers in the series now and Heikki is out.phil1993 wrote:Fangio's career was funded by the Argentine government.
Lauda had to take out a massive loan.
Schumacher scrambled $150,000 for his Jordan debut.
F1 is all about money, it always has. Manufacturers had more more than independants, money bought the best engineers, money bought the best drivers. Money bought people with less talent seats they wouldnt have normally got. you look at many, many championships; they were all bought by money; Spent on the car; developers for the car; innovation by the best designers, best drivers they can.
Sauber needed money; so they sold their seat to a pay driver, Hulkenberg has talent and also brings a wedge. Williams, Force India, Caterham and Marussia; all hire because of money. You cant rely on talent alone in Formula 1 anymore, you either need money from a group paying everything for you since you were young, or a funder with an interest to buy you a seat and sponsorship.
If you think drivers like Schumacher, Alonso and Kimi didnt get monitery backing and bring sponsors. They got to low end teams on the off chance, because Sauber, Minardi and Jordan were renouned for being one of few teams (before Jordan/minardi's heavy decline) that took talent over cash. Sauber only afforded to in the end due to money being brought it from Petronas and then being purchased by BMW.
Money is a problem for all but RB/Ferrari/Mclaren. Lotus begged for their money earlier a year back to keep accreditors at bay, teams desperatly trying to secure budget, relying on loans and hoping they get higher in the standings. Marussia lost glock because they didnt get 10th in the standings. Its a harsh fact, but Formula 1 is all about money.
Re: 2012-13 Silly Season
Yes, there are pay drivers.
They are 10 times better than the 'pay drivers' of the 1990s.
They are 10 times better than the 'pay drivers' of the 1990s.
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As I wrote we see it differently. Lotto is about money, it is all about money. More you put money in bigger your changes to win becomes. Common with F1 is that you hardly get your investment ever back. That is, if you are a team in F1 you hardly get you investment back as money. I don't think money is what Ferrari or Mercedes or Red Bull are after. They seek publicity and it is part of their marketing effort. F1 is about people. Nor Toyota or Honda could make it regardless of their huge budgets. Honda at least won couple of GPs but Toyota won nothing. Red Bull turned Jaguar into a GP winning team in five years with Newey's third design in the team and got second place in CWC. From there on it has been just championship after championship. But there is not enough money to buy Newey (nor Vettel or other key persons) out from Red Bull if he or others are happy there.
People make F1, not the money, but I have newer said or wrote that money means nothing in F1, or that it is not a significant part of F1. I did write: "Häkkinen, Räikkönen and many others got help from their managers in early years" and also: "drivers have always had some support from somewhere to get into racing". Keke Rosberg finanzed Häkkinen's racing from his own pocket before Mika started earning anything. Robertsons made a big investment into Räikkönen when he really started his international racing career. Schumacher was helped unselfishly by Peter Sauber and he didn't even know it before 2006. No doubts even champions have needed money to get into F1.
But really, is money what F1 is about - as I see it, I don't think so. I had to even check from a dictionary what the word "about" means and I don't think I have misunderstood it. If you think it is about money or all about money, so be it. My English is not good enough to explain my point of view, so it is useless waste of time to argue what F1 is about or is not. I have better things to do. And this is now even off topic.
People make F1, not the money, but I have newer said or wrote that money means nothing in F1, or that it is not a significant part of F1. I did write: "Häkkinen, Räikkönen and many others got help from their managers in early years" and also: "drivers have always had some support from somewhere to get into racing". Keke Rosberg finanzed Häkkinen's racing from his own pocket before Mika started earning anything. Robertsons made a big investment into Räikkönen when he really started his international racing career. Schumacher was helped unselfishly by Peter Sauber and he didn't even know it before 2006. No doubts even champions have needed money to get into F1.
But really, is money what F1 is about - as I see it, I don't think so. I had to even check from a dictionary what the word "about" means and I don't think I have misunderstood it. If you think it is about money or all about money, so be it. My English is not good enough to explain my point of view, so it is useless waste of time to argue what F1 is about or is not. I have better things to do. And this is now even off topic.
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I understand what you are saying reppo and I agree. Money is important in Formula One but it's not a winning factor if the pay drivers are average. Heikki or Timo didn't lose their seats because Giedo or Razia are better. So basically small teams are not trying to improve as much as they try to stay in the sport.
I really respect Glock for what he did. I have a feeling this will be the worst season for Marussia.
I really respect Glock for what he did. I have a feeling this will be the worst season for Marussia.
The whole situation makes you wonder, what about the talented young drivers who can't afford to have a sponsor? F1 is not anymore about having the fastest drivers in the world."He understood our situation and told us that if his leaving can help 100 jobs, then he will make room for another driver."
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Jennie Gow is tweeting Indian media is reporting Karthikeyan is making a late bid (literally!) for the Force India seat. The report says Tata have increased their backing.
I'd be surprised to be honest, if it were to happen it would be an indication of the financial situation at Force India given what Mallya previously said about Karthikeyan, Chandhok and signing and Indian driver (he's not going to do it for the sake of it, there are no Indian drivers good enough to drive for his team).
I'd be surprised to be honest, if it were to happen it would be an indication of the financial situation at Force India given what Mallya previously said about Karthikeyan, Chandhok and signing and Indian driver (he's not going to do it for the sake of it, there are no Indian drivers good enough to drive for his team).
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I agree slightly with reppo. It isn't about money, it's what you do with the money - example is Red Bull vs Toyota. But money has always been an incredibly important factor.iceman1 wrote:I understand what you are saying reppo and I agree. Money is important in Formula One but it's not a winning factor if the pay drivers are average. Heikki or Timo didn't lose their seats because Giedo or Razia are better. So basically small teams are not trying to improve as much as they try to stay in the sport.
I really respect Glock for what he did. I have a feeling this will be the worst season for Marussia.The whole situation makes you wonder, what about the talented young drivers who can't afford to have a sponsor? F1 is not anymore about having the fastest drivers in the world."He understood our situation and told us that if his leaving can help 100 jobs, then he will make room for another driver."
With drivers, I have huge respect for Glock. I think he's fantastic and that was a noble thing to do. But he at least had a chance. So did Heikki, and he squandered it a little. My irritation is the top drivers that never get to F1. The likes of Giedo, Chilton and Razia are still good drivers...but there's others - that haven't made their debut yet and may never not - that I'd pluck first. The whole system at the moment is flawed because of Vettel and Hamilton. Both came in very young and are brilliant. But not every driver is like that - would Button have survived beyond 2002 by modern standards? Guys need to make their debut a little later and not be chucked out after 2 years if they don't succeed. Conversely, teams can tell who's a star and who isn't through how they work, lap times, data etc. What I dislike is people criticising Gutierrez for replacing Kobayashi, because there's hypocrisy if you try and do that!
Nevertheless, I think we have a fantastic group of drivers. I mean, out of the top ten - Vettel down to Hamilton in Car 10, you'd be hard pressed to choose who might finish P10 in the WDC and which team will be P5 in the WCC, but one has to be!
My ideal line-up would be having Wickens in there somewhere. I really hope Frijns and da Costa get a shot, but I hope they wait until 2014 or 2015 because those guys could be mega - but don't rush them!
Another reality is there's too many very good drivers and not enough seats. If we had pre-qualifying, or even 13 teams, that would give another 4 drivers a chance at F1. But who's going to join want to join the grid in the next 5 years..? I'm not in favour of three car teams or customer cars either.
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I really don't think it'll be Narain. I think Force India's troubles are exaggerated for the sake of typical media hyperbole. Bianchi will be given the seat before the second test. Narain is a good driver, but if they go for him there's no way they'll finish in the top 7. Maybe not even 8th.
Re: 2012-13 Silly Season
Please, not that terrible driver... Kobayashi has found backing, invite him!
Human at Sight,
Monster at Heart!
Re: 2012-13 Silly Season
Red Bull offered them the double amount to keep Narain out of F1donald29 wrote:Jennie Gow is tweeting Indian media is reporting Karthikeyan is making a late bid (literally!) for the Force India seat. The report says Tata have increased their backing.
I'd be surprised to be honest, if it were to happen it would be an indication of the financial situation at Force India given what Mallya previously said about Karthikeyan, Chandhok and signing and Indian driver (he's not going to do it for the sake of it, there are no Indian drivers good enough to drive for his team).
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Narain isn't THAT bad, and it would be nice to see him in a better car. Be funny if he did beat Di Resta over a season, I think his stock would be destroyed!
But in all seriousness, when you look at the money aspect with RB vs Toyota; RB spent money on the men and then gave them tons more, Toyota didnt use the money right, didnt lure the right people. It was the same problem with Honda; Japanese board, every decision had to be passed to the board which was the main problem.
But if you buy the best drivers, best designers and engineers, and buy the best equipment you would never lose.
But in all seriousness, when you look at the money aspect with RB vs Toyota; RB spent money on the men and then gave them tons more, Toyota didnt use the money right, didnt lure the right people. It was the same problem with Honda; Japanese board, every decision had to be passed to the board which was the main problem.
But if you buy the best drivers, best designers and engineers, and buy the best equipment you would never lose.
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I feel for Narain, he gets a lot of unnecessary and unfair abuse. He's not great, but he wasn't awful at Jordan. He's 36 now, I wouldn't say there's a place on the grid for him especially not Force India but I still maintain he's better than Chandhok.
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Id actually like to see Narain in FI. Simply because, the money he brings to the indian national team, along with the exposure, along with being able to say 'Look, im not THAT bad, i can still drive and race, and I can still stick it to some', it will be a huge draw for the Indian GP and it will be a good send off. Sort of like Fisichella's F60 year end. It was a great way to send off, even if the results weren't there.donald29 wrote:I feel for Narain, he gets a lot of unnecessary and unfair abuse. He's not great, but he wasn't awful at Jordan. He's 36 now, I wouldn't say there's a place on the grid for him especially not Force India but I still maintain he's better than Chandhok.
Id rather see that than another Chilton or Razia; just to get some proper closure for at least one decent driver; I jsut wish Glock, Kovy, Heidfeld and Koba got that.
And i still miss heidfeld on the grid.
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Narain was a great driver throughout his junior career and it is unfortunate he got into F1 as late as he did and with the teams he did. Now all he's considered as is a poor pay driver. But looking back at his rise to F1 you can see he has (had) the capabilities to beat some of the best around.