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 Post subject: Re: Massa let pass Alonso (Do you Agree ?)
PostPosted: 01 Aug 2010, 10:52  
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 Post subject: Re: Massa let pass Alonso (Do you Agree ?)
PostPosted: 03 Aug 2010, 11:19  
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The FIA confirmed the date for a disciplinary hearing of the WMSC under the sporting deputy president Graham Stoker in Paris on 8th September.
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FIA confirms Paris date for WMSC team orders hearing
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The FIA has finally followed up on the Ferrari team orders controversy by confirming that the World Motor Sport Council will indeed look into the affair.

The hearing will take place in Paris on Wednesday September 8. There has been suggestions that it would be added to the agenda of the meeting already planned for Como later that week, but clearly it would have been tricky to get hold of the Ferrari drivers and personnel, who will be busy at Monza from Thursday.

The FIA announcement makes it clear that FIA President Jean Todt personally approved the decision to follow up on the recommendation of the Germn GP stewards that he case go to the WMSC. However he won’t be at the centre of the actual hearing, as his predecessor Max Mosley was in the past. It’s a co-incidence that the first major F1 scandal on his watch involves Ferrari and Felipe Massa, but naturally Todt will be somewhat in the spotlight as things unfold.

The full announcement reads as follows: “On 25 July 2010, on the occasion of the Grand Prix of Germany counting towards the 2010 Formula One World Championship, the Stewards of the meeting, after hearing the persons concerned, noted an infringement by the Scuderia Ferrari of:

- Article 39.1 of the 2010 Sporting Regulations (“Team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited”)

- and Article 151 c) of the International Sporting Code (“Any of the following offences (…) shall be deemed to be a breach of these rules (…) any fraudulent conduct or any act prejudicial to the interests of any competition or to the interests of motor sport generally”).

“In the light of the information in their possession, the Stewards decided to impose a fine of $100,000 on the Scuderia Ferrari and to forward the dossier to the FIA World Motor Sport Council.

“On the basis of that decision and of the inquiry report, and following the receipt of a report sent by the Stewards to the FIA, the FIA President has decided, in conformity with the new rules of disciplinary procedure adopted at his initiative on 11 March 2010, to submit the case to the judging body of the World Motor Sport Council.

“The disciplinary hearing of the World Council will be chaired by the FIA Deputy President for Sport and will take place in Paris on 8 September 2010.”
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 Post subject: Re: Massa let pass Alonso (Do you Agree ?)
PostPosted: 03 Aug 2010, 14:32  
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Wasn't 151 c the article which got McLaren thrown out of the championship in '07?

As much as I would like it, I don't think much will come of this hearing. Ferrari is the biggest name in F1 (probably the biggest name in the automotive world) and if Ferrari is angry enough, they will pull out of F1, and that could truly spell disaster for the sport. Look for another fine and a slap on the wrist.

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 Post subject: Re: Massa let pass Alonso (Do you Agree ?)
PostPosted: 03 Aug 2010, 14:37  
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 Post subject: Re: Massa let pass Alonso (Do you Agree ?)
PostPosted: 04 Aug 2010, 08:55  
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"Back in 2002 at the Austrian Grand Prix, then Ferrari boss Jean Todt ordered Rubens Barrichello to pull to one side and allow Michael Schumacher to take the chequered flag.

However, Todt, who is now the FIA president, will not be in the chair for the meeting with the deputy president Nick Craw taking the position."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsp ... 879447.stm
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 Post subject: Re: Massa let pass Alonso (Do you Agree ?)
PostPosted: 04 Aug 2010, 10:18  
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iceman1 wrote:
"Back in 2002 at the Austrian Grand Prix, then Ferrari boss Jean Todt ordered Rubens Barrichello to pull to one side and allow Michael Schumacher to take the chequered flag.

However, Todt, who is now the FIA president, will not be in the chair for the meeting with the deputy president Nick Craw taking the position."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsp ... 879447.stm


Have I got it all wrong or were team orders allowed in 2002?

If they were, do Ferrari even have a case?

Leo Turrini said something like this:

Quote:
Be sure that audio tapes of Zeltweg 2002 will be brought out.


So is it an ethical or a legal case they have?

I should have followed F1 more in depth at the time but I got really interested in rules and regulations during season 2007. All years before that are a blur to me :blush:

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 Post subject: Re: Massa let pass Alonso (Do you Agree ?)
PostPosted: 04 Aug 2010, 10:27  
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Wolfie wrote:
iceman1 wrote:
"Back in 2002 at the Austrian Grand Prix, then Ferrari boss Jean Todt ordered Rubens Barrichello to pull to one side and allow Michael Schumacher to take the chequered flag.

However, Todt, who is now the FIA president, will not be in the chair for the meeting with the deputy president Nick Craw taking the position."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsp ... 879447.stm


Have I got it all wrong or were team orders allowed in 2002?

If they were, do Ferrari even have a case?

Leo Turrini said something like this:

Quote:
Be sure that audio tapes of Zeltweg 2002 will be brought out.


So is it an ethical or a legal case they have?

I should have followed F1 more in depth at the time but I got really interested in rules and regulations during season 2007. All years before that are a blur to me :blush:

Team orders were legal until after Austria. It was as a result of Austria that the rules were changed.

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 Post subject: Re: Massa let pass Alonso (Do you Agree ?)
PostPosted: 06 Aug 2010, 10:59  
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Thank you, cformula1 :)

So basically Ferrari doesn't have a case then? If Todt did something during the time it was legal, then he does wrong if he let's Ferrari off the hook now?

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 Post subject: Re: Massa let pass Alonso (Do you Agree ?)
PostPosted: 11 Aug 2010, 19:26  
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A suitable penalty would be for Ferrari to lose the constructors points they earned for Hockenheim. McLaren lost the ones at Hungaroring in 2007 (well they lost them all in the end :p) but for Hungary they weren't allowed the 15 they earnt because of the pit saga after quali. In my opinion, what McLaren did that day was no worse than what Ferrari did. Take 43 points off of Ferrari and set a precedent.

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 Post subject: Re: Massa let pass Alonso (Do you Agree ?)
PostPosted: 12 Aug 2010, 10:34  
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That would be a good penalty, but I'm afraid it won't happen

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 Post subject: Re: Massa let pass Alonso (Do you Agree ?)
PostPosted: 12 Aug 2010, 10:47  
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phil1993 wrote:
A suitable penalty would be for Ferrari to lose the constructors points they earned for Hockenheim. McLaren lost the ones at Hungaroring in 2007 (well they lost them all in the end :p) but for Hungary they weren't allowed the 15 they earnt because of the pit saga after quali. In my opinion, what McLaren did that day was no worse than what Ferrari did. Take 43 points off of Ferrari and set a precedent.

It will be pretty sweet to have the Ferraris stripped off the result just 2 days before their beloved home race :lol: :lol:
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 Post subject: Re: Massa let pass Alonso (Do you Agree ?)
PostPosted: 12 Aug 2010, 11:03  
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 Post subject: Re: Massa let pass Alonso (Do you Agree ?)
PostPosted: 12 Aug 2010, 12:58  
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phil1993 wrote:
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And I agree with the constructors points penalty. They manipulated the race in what is an illegal manner (clear team order) and they should thus be penalised in a way that hurts the team and not the drivers.

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 Post subject: Re: Massa let pass Alonso (Do you Agree ?)
PostPosted: 13 Aug 2010, 10:45  
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 Post subject: Re: Massa let pass Alonso (Do you Agree ?)
PostPosted: 14 Aug 2010, 18:39  
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well its not fair on felipe, and people will say its not fair on the sport. But lets put it like this.

Canada 2005- Alonso was a second a lap faster than fisichella and fisi was bulking fernando into the mclarens. turns out fisi had mechanical fault for the slow pace (not that he was slow anyway) and retired, alonso did too. But nobody moaned that Alonso demanded his way through.

China 2006. Fisi let alonso past who struggled with tyres. Noone moaned

In 2007, Massa was given a long pit stop so kimi could win the championship. Nobody cried about that.

2008, Kovalainen was told at both Silverstone and Germany that lewis is faster. After that kovalainen went exceptionally wide and did not fight lewis at all. He let him through. Lewis subsiquently went on to win both races. If he was stuck behind kovalainen, would he have won them? Who knows. But team orders damn well got him those 2 wins on a plate. Nobody complained.

China 2008. Kimi slowed to let massa past to stay in the championship. Nobody moaned.


2010 turkey- Redbull clearly wanted vetel to get past webber, and if you lip read the pitwall as the manouevuer happened youd see horner saying something like cmon move move mover and then fling his hands in the aire because webber didnt budge.

Mclaren, various races Later that race (turkey), mclaren went into its fuel mix bullsh*t. They told jenson not to attack lewis, they told lewis that jenson would not attempt to overtake him. So that is interfering with race results as they stopped one driver overtaking another. But i think it also happened in china, where they were told to fuel save so lewis wouldnt attempt to pass jenson. Now, thats team orders used to preserve a result. Is that wrong? No its not personally, but the rules dont allow any interference with a race result which in effect, it did affect the race result as we was not allowed to see a battle between the 2 drivers.

So my question really and what im getting at is this.

as a majority of you are lew fans, ill say it like this. Lewis is 1 point ahead of webber at the final race. Jenson is leading after a brilliant start, taking both lew and Mark in turn 1 with his teammate 2 seconds behind, and webber a further 10 seconds behind lewis.

Can you HONESTLY say, that you wouldnt want jenson to let lewis by? Can you honestly believe what martin 'we dont execute team orders but fuel mix 8 its critical' whitmarsh, wouldnt tell jenson, coded or not, to let lewis through and protect him from webber? No. Ofcourse not. Formula 1, has never been about being a good sportsman and getting a sympathetic pat on the back. Racing machines like fernando and lewis would expect to be given the position and they would do anything for the win. Hell, lewis would lie to get 3rd place, alonso would brake test to put schumacher in his place. They both do it because they want to win.

If you wanted a gentlemans game your in the wrong sport people. I believe alot of you disagree with what happened in hungary because of who it was who benefited, but put your favourite driver in the same position, and then look me in the eye and say youd rather your driver be a good sport, not win the championship by 1 point and be a failure and not be noted in the history books. Thats what barrichello admitted when he said hed rather not win a championship than win it with assistance. Schumacher still has 7 up on barrichello, thats all the history books will show. The racing machines go down in history, not the gentlemen and do-gooders in a sport about money and winning.

How could mclaren face the public and say 'we didnt win because of 1 point. We did have the chance to swap positions, but we didnt as its dishonest'. Do the sponsors really sponsor a team to be second? nope. They sponsor to win and get exposure. Vodafone Mclaren mercedes 2010 world champions. Number 1 and 2 on the cars. Gets alot more money thant number 3 and 4.
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