Red Bull collision - Turkish Grand Prix

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Who was to blame?

Sebastian Vettel
20
61%
Mark Webber
7
21%
Both
6
18%
 
Total votes: 33

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Re: Red Bull collision - Turkish Grand Prix

Post by JoostLamers » 01 Jun 2010, 08:20

This will be the end of Webber at Red Bull

This is Joe Sawards opinion on this subject, it's a very interesting article
Spoiler:
Red Bull Racing may have the fastest car in Formula 1 this year, but the team has made a fundamental mistake. And the fact that the two drivers collided is not the problem. That was unfortunate. The real problem is that one of the drivers – the one leading the World Championship, no less – is no longer sure that he can trust his own team. Someone in the team has to take the blame for that – and it is not Mark Webber. At the time of the crash Webber was in the lead and Vettel’s rash (some might say desperate) manoeuvre seemed to catch him out. Lewis Hamilton, who was following behind in his McLaren was clear that he felt that Vettel was to blame.

“I saw Sebastian go to the inside, where there’s not much room, and there didn’t seem to be any reason for him to try to move to the right,” he said.

Webber was clearly trying to avoid controversy – being loyal to the team – but it was also clear that he was not at all happy. He explained that there was no reason why Vettel should have been able to close up on him.

“I wasn’t too slow, no. Seb had a top speed advantage and it looks like he turned pretty quick when he was alongside and we made contact.”

In a previous post we examined the lap times involved and it was clear that Vettel was suddenly able to speed up in relation to Webber. Team boss Christian Horner has now confirmed that the drivers did have different engine settings – something he initially denied. And “denied” is an important word. He did not say that he thought they were on the same setting. He said that they definitely were. Later he recanted on that. Explaining why Horner and Red Bull representative Helmut Marko attacked Webber after the race is going to be difficult to explain.

It is up to the man overtaking to make the move stick and Vettel failed to do that. Webber did not give him much room but there was no reason why he should have done. Webber kept to his line, he did not move right or left. If the road had been wider then Mark would have lost the place, but in the end Vettel drove into the side of his team-mate, presumably thinking that Webber would get out his way.

The problem now is that everyone in the F1 paddock thinks that the Red Bull camp wants Vettel to be World Champion and the whole business has created the ironic situation of Webber being 15 points ahead. To make matters worse the two McLaren drivers are now between the two Red Bull drivers and so trying to help Vettel will be watched for and could open the way for one of the McLaren men to steal the title – which would not be smart at all.

The big teams have all learned over the years that favouring one driver over another is a very blinkered approach. It worked for Ferrariwith Michael Schumacher, but in the overall scheme of things, this means that Michael is not given the respect that perhaps he deserves when he is rated along with the all-time greats as he had many advantages and very little pressure. Williams has always tried to treat its drivers fairly, right back to the days of Alan Jones and Carlos Reutemann. There were similar problems in the Nelson Piquet- Nigel Mansell era, although Nelson has long since admitted that he stirred up that trouble deliberately to try to destabilize Mansell. There is no doubt that in 1986 the two Williams drivers lost the title to Alain Prost because they were allowed to race one another. McLaren has to deal with the same problem with Ayrton Senna and Prost in 1989 and was unable to keep the peace and the same happened in 2007 when Fernando Alonso found it impossible to accept the concept that Lewis Hamilton could be as fast as he was. This did serious damage to Alonso’s reputation, although the Spanish media has convinced itself that the English team favoured the English driver.

The Istanbul incident has done nothing to help the relationship between the two Red Bull drivers, although Webber made it clear that he can see a way to get over it. The real “f**king disaster” to which he referred is not about Vettel, but rather about whether he can trust his team or whether he has to watch out for behind-the-scenes meddling. This uncertainty will weaken the team. One can dismiss this as paranoia, but what was clear in Istanbul was that almost no-one in F1 outside the Red Bull camp thought Webber could be blamed for the incident.

Red Bull has long had the bad habit of messing with its drivers. If the team wants to win the World Championship, this must stop.

Down at McLaren they must be laughing all the way to the bank…
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Re: Red Bull collision - Turkish Grand Prix

Post by cformula1 » 01 Jun 2010, 08:31

What I don't understand is why Red Bull asked for Vettel to go past. They were equal championship leaders and the only reason Vettel had an advantage is that he could burn more fuel (and only then for one lap) than Webber. Therefore it is very silly to believe that Webber should be forced to yield to Vettel, as he was equal with, not behind Vettel. To me it shows the disgraceful fact that Red Bull prefer Vettel over Webber, even when they are equal in the championship. Why Red Bull are not being demonised a la Ferrari in the Schumacher era is a mystery to me.
As for the incident itself, Webber gave Vettel the choice of either side. He could have passed with less fuss on the outside, but instead took the inside, misjudged his position and hit Webber, which was a rookie mistake and a mistake that a champion wouldn't make, especially with his teammate.
Vettel's reaction after the incident was nothing short of disgusting, arrogant and downright rude. I understand that he was annoyed, and that he thought Webber was in the wrong. Not an excuse for the finger though. And I am very disappointed that he has not apologised, given that 80%-90% of people that I've seen believe that he is in the wrong.
Webber must be applauded for his reaction though- he got on with the job, and finished in 3rd, a great result considering the incident. Also he kept himself composed in the press conference, something that, faced with the same situation, many of us would not.
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Re: Red Bull collision - Turkish Grand Prix

Post by phil1993 » 01 Jun 2010, 08:51

I pretty much agree with that, cf1. Commenting on it here viewtopic.php?f=143&t=5868

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Re: Red Bull collision - Turkish Grand Prix

Post by coup » 01 Jun 2010, 10:10

most of the polls I've seen has 70 to 80% saying that the collision was vettel's fault, but the one on the official F1 website shows:

Mark Webber 32.73%
Sebastian Vettel 38.97%
Too close to call 28.30%

weird :confused:
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Re: Red Bull collision - Turkish Grand Prix

Post by swca92 » 01 Jun 2010, 10:23

Proper fans don't vote on the official F1 website, they vote on forums/journalists websites etc. Casual F1 fans have probably voted for that weird result.

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Re: Red Bull collision - Turkish Grand Prix

Post by phil1993 » 01 Jun 2010, 10:47

Or maybe Red Bull just kept voting

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Re: Red Bull collision - Turkish Grand Prix

Post by JoostLamers » 01 Jun 2010, 10:51

phil1993 wrote:Or maybe Red Bull just kept voting

:rofl:
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Re: Red Bull collision - Turkish Grand Prix

Post by blizzard » 01 Jun 2010, 10:54

phil1993 wrote:Or maybe Red Bull just kept voting


I wish Red Bull would just leave F1, they´re such a plastic team!
No tradition in car manufacturing or Formul One. Just a rich man with too much money behind them.

I want to see proper manufacturers or established private teams like Williams, McLaren, Ferrari, Sauber, Renault etc.

THEY are Formula One, not Red Bull.


These rich guys buying sports teams really destroy the soul of sport imo.

It´s the same with Chelsea and Man City, forever mediocre, but then a sugardaddy comes in and changes everything within months.

It´s really a slap in the face for those teams who are competing and working hard for over 20 years...
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Re: Red Bull collision - Turkish Grand Prix

Post by phil1993 » 01 Jun 2010, 10:56

Well, without Newey, RBR would still be a midfield team

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Re: Red Bull collision - Turkish Grand Prix

Post by JoostLamers » 01 Jun 2010, 10:59

phil1993 wrote:Well, without Newey, RBR would still be a midfield team

And he just extended his contract with RBR :zz:

Would love to see him back at McLaren :roll::
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Re: Red Bull collision - Turkish Grand Prix

Post by phil1993 » 01 Jun 2010, 11:01

Marko: Webber should have let Vettel through

"Mark, for whatever reason, was slower," the Austrian told SpeedTV. "He was getting slower lap by lap and Vettel was getting faster and was coming under enormous pressure from Hamilton.

"If he stayed behind Mark, he would have been overtaken, so he had to do something and Mark knew that he was slower, so he should have let him passed."

Adding that discussions will take place to ensure that such a moment does not reoccur, Marko expressed his opinion over what he describes as an unfortunate Vettel.

"It's unbelievable how unlucky Vettel is," he continued. "He showed so much speed and, if you have all these incidents, it's unbelievable how strong his morale and commitment still is."

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Re: Red Bull collision - Turkish Grand Prix

Post by JoostLamers » 01 Jun 2010, 11:12

"It's unbelievable how unlucky Vettel is," he continued. "He showed so much speed and, if you have all these incidents, it's unbelievable how strong his morale and commitment still is."

Strong morale and commitment? Yeah, right.

It looks to me like he has a problem with his mentality. Outqualified by a person named Mark Webber for 3 races in a row and with the same (superior) materials. And that for a guy who is known as a Pole sitter king, and Webber is known for his weaker Q's than his teammate.. :zz:
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Re: Red Bull collision - Turkish Grand Prix

Post by phil1993 » 01 Jun 2010, 11:21

This season, Vettel's luck has been no worse than what Hamilton or Alonso has endured... He has had 3 mechanical problems, Hamilton had a mechanical problem and got nerfed off by Webber in Oz, Alonso had an engine failure and clutch issues etc. Every driver has to keep going, he has a race winning car, of course his morale should be high. If he were driving an HRT then maybe his morale would be low but he isn't.

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Re: Red Bull collision - Turkish Grand Prix

Post by Denorth » 01 Jun 2010, 11:27

blizzard wrote:
phil1993 wrote:Or maybe Red Bull just kept voting


I wish Red Bull would just leave F1, they´re such a plastic team!
No tradition in car manufacturing or Formul One. Just a rich man with too much money behind them.

I want to see proper manufacturers or established private teams like Williams, McLaren, Ferrari, Sauber, Renault etc.

THEY are Formula One, not Red Bull.


These rich guys buying sports teams really destroy the soul of sport imo.

It´s the same with Chelsea and Man City, forever mediocre, but then a sugardaddy comes in and changes everything within months.

It´s really a slap in the face for those teams who are competing and working hard for over 20 years...


I really struggle to see any F1 team that was originally established by the poor people. Do you know any? Especially in the last 20-30 years
and one more thing - everyone starts from big Zero in terms of heritage.

sorry fo being off-topic
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Re: Red Bull collision - Turkish Grand Prix

Post by phil1993 » 01 Jun 2010, 11:29

Yeah, you've got to allow new blood in. Its why its annoying when people attack the new teams for being so slow. In actual fact, they're not that slow, its just that its so close up front now. 10 years ago, Minardi were slower than McLaren by a wider margin than HRT are slower than Virgin. Lotus are only 3-4s off the pace and thats really good seeing as they only got the nod 6 months to the day before Bahrain.

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