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 Post subject: We all love McLaren
PostPosted: 14 Dec 2009, 10:31  
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Max: I wanted to ban McLaren over Spygate


ax Mosley says he wanted to ban McLaren over the Spygate affair in 2007 but was outvoted by fellow World Motor Sport Council members.

The former FIA president also claims the whole episode led to him be seen a "bully" by many people.

In a tell-all piece in The Sunday Telegraph, Mosley claims he was in favour of banning McLaren after they were found guilty of being in possession of confidential Ferrari information.

'The only safe thing would have been to exclude them from 2007 immediately and also from the 2008 championship. But with little or no income for 18 months and over 1,000 employees, their situation would have been dire. A ban would also have destroyed the great championship battle which was going on between Lewis Hamilton and Kimi Raikkonen.

'I was for a ban. I understood the consequences but I believe in the old legal maxim "hard cases make bad law". But I was outvoted (so much for the accusations of dictatorship) and the council went for a very large ($100 million) fine instead. McLaren did not appeal. No doubt they realised that the ICA would almost certainly substitute a ban for the fine. They also knew no civil court was likely to interfere with a ban in such circumstances and the requirement to make full disclosure under oath during the legal process of discovery might lead to much greater embarrassment.

'Despite the large sum involved, McLaren knew they had got off lightly, particularly after checks on the 2008 car revealed further devastating evidence. One email exchange between engineers responsible for the 2007 and 2008 cars asked whether information had come "from our mole" at Ferrari.

'But for me, personally, "spygate" and its consequences marked a new era. The view that I was too aggressive, too confrontational and perhaps even a bully was peddled non-stop. I was blamed (wrongly as it happens) for the size of the fine.'



Well done Lewis, great job beating a guy who had more technical problems in one season than you had in your whole career, with a car that featured all the stolen goodies from Ferrari. He´s so awesome, yeah he´s the new Senna...I disagree :lol:

source: http://www.autotrader.co.uk/f1/story/0, ... 32,00.html

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 Post subject: Re: We all love McLaren
PostPosted: 14 Dec 2009, 11:29  
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yes they got off lightly, but what renault did in singapore is not even 10% of what mclaren did in 07, i would ban renault forever from f1, to manipulate a race is unforgiving to me, no matter who won in the end..., this is unforgiving to me
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 Post subject: Re: We all love McLaren
PostPosted: 14 Dec 2009, 17:24  
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Honestly blizzard, I know you are not a strong fan of McLaren (quite the opposite in fact), but

blizzard wrote:
Well done Lewis, great job beating a guy who had more technical problems in one season than you had in your whole career, with a car that featured all the stolen goodies from Ferrari. He´s so awesome, yeah he´s the new Senna...I disagree


I don't believe McLaren used Ferrari data on their car: I think it was an isolated case between Coughlan & Stepney.
I agree with alex in that the Renault case is far far worse and its hardly like Ferrari never cheated :O

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 Post subject: Re: We all love McLaren
PostPosted: 14 Dec 2009, 17:37  
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spying is a norm in f1 i believe...... too bad mclaren got caught.

cheating is another thing....but i think that is a very broad topic to discuss.

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 Post subject: Re: We all love McLaren
PostPosted: 14 Dec 2009, 17:38  
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Toyota did it in 2004 I believe

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 Post subject: Re: We all love McLaren
PostPosted: 14 Dec 2009, 17:53  
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or is it honda? > the hidden fuel tanks......

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 Post subject: Re: We all love McLaren
PostPosted: 14 Dec 2009, 17:54  
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Them too. And the 2003 Sauber looked remarkably like the 2003 Ferrari...

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 Post subject: Re: We all love McLaren
PostPosted: 14 Dec 2009, 17:57  
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blizzard wrote:
Well done Lewis, great job beating a guy who had more technical problems in one season than you had in your whole career, with a car that featured all the stolen goodies from Ferrari. He´s so awesome, yeah he´s the new Senna...I disagree

i think that was a bit out of order.

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 Post subject: Re: We all love McLaren
PostPosted: 14 Dec 2009, 18:14  
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To prove its not just McLaren:

1984 F1 Season - Tyrrell FOUND GUILTY of illegally putting ballast in the car at the final pit stops, thus running underweight for a majority of the race. Banished from 1984 season.
1990 Japanese GP - Ayrton Senna ADMITTED to crashing into Alain Prost at the start of the race, after FIA boss wouldn't change the pole position grid hatching to the clean side of the track.
1994 British GP: Michael Schumacher and Benetton FOUND GUILTY of failing to comply with FIA directives. Schumacher is given a two-race ban and the team is fined between $500,000 and $600,000.
1994 German GP - After a pitfire that injured several mechanics and driver Jos Verstappen, Benetton were FOUND GUILTY of illegally modifying the fuel system, by removing a small filter that limited fuel flow. Can't remember punishment.
1994 Belgian GP: Michael Schumacher and Benetton are FOUND GUILTY of and disqualified for completing the race with an illegally thin plank.
2000 Brazil GP - David Coulthard/McLaren were FOUND GUILTY of using an illegal front wing. Lost 2nd place.
2002 Austrian GP - Ferrari FOUND GUILTY of team orders, as Barichello was ordered to let Michael Schumacher win the race. Were fined $1m dollars.
2004: Two Toyota mechanics were FOUND GUILTY (in a criminal court) of stealing Ferrari documentaton relating to the F2003-GA. Toyota itself was accused of industrial espionage.
2004 Canadian GP - BMW Williams and Toyota were FOUND GUILTY of using illegally sized brake ducts. We're stripped all of all results in the race.
2005 San Marino GP - BAR Honda FOUND GUILTY of using fuel as ballast using a reservoir tank, which is against the rules. We're stripped of all results in the race and banned for 1 or 2 races.
2006 Monaco GP - Michael Schumacher FOUND GUILTY of crashing on purpose to gain pole position (although he has always denied it). Was banished to P20.
2006 German GP - Midland F1 FOUND GUILTY of over-flexible rear wings. Disqualified from race.
2007 F1 Season - McLaren FOUND GUILTY of industrial/sporting espionage. Fined $100m.
2008 Belgian GP - Lewis Hamilton FOUND GUILTY of an illegal overtaking move which helped him win the race. Was given a 25 second penalty.
2008 Singapore GP - Nelson Piquet ADMITTED to crashing on purpose to help teammate Fernando Alonso win the race. Team boss Flavio Briatore and Technical Officer Pat Symonds FOUND GUILTY of conspiring with Nelson, Flavio was banned for life, Pat for 5 years.
2009 Australian GP - Toyota FOUND GUILTY of over-flexible rear wings. We're sent to the back of the grid for the race.
2009 Australian GP - Lewis Hamilton FOUND GUILTY of lying to race stewards. Disqualified from the race. Dave Ryan suspended and later sacked.

1994 F1 Season - Benetton ALLEGEDLY were using an illegal launch control system and traction control systems. Was admitted by Pat Symonds several years later but we're never punished at the time.
2000 Austrian GP - Michael Schumacher ALLEGEDLY parked his car in a dangerous position thus hoping the race would stop and for him to be able to restart the race. Even though its pretty clear to see he was never punished.
2001 German GP - same as above but after Luciano Burti hit the back of him.
2007 F1 Season - several teams including Red Bull were accused of flexible wings.
November\December 2007: Renault ADMITTED that an employee had stolen two discs of data from McLaren.

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 Post subject: Re: We all love McLaren
PostPosted: 14 Dec 2009, 18:31  
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well, as things go...if you don't cheat (and don't get caught), you'll end up nowhere......but if you don't cheat yet continue to be successful, then congrats for a job well done. :D

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 Post subject: Re: We all love McLaren
PostPosted: 14 Dec 2009, 18:41  
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Well guys I didn´t say McLaren had to be kicked out of F1 or something right? :O

I just said that Hamilton´s championship was hugely undeserved in my oppinion. He was in the right place at the right time, but the media and he himself glorified his championship as if it was the best thing since Jim Clark dominated F1.

I mean Jenson took it in a quite humble way this season, he knows that he´s nowhere near as good as Fangio or Senna or whoever is considered an all time great. In fact he knows that it was largely down to the Brawn beeing a great car and his teammate beeing "only" Rubens.

But in Hamilton´s case it was all him...no mentioning of how good the McLaren was, in fact it was the best car on the grid for 2 years overall.
In 2005 Kimi was in stunning stunning form, but poor reliability cost him the championship in a season where he would have won 11 races or even 12. Hamilton had a bulletproof car for 2 years and still needed Massa to have technical issues on his car to win the championship.

The reason for the big Hamilton hype is just beyond me.

Maybe it´s just sour grapes, but I can´t accept it when people get overhyped and make themselves appear far bigger than they really are.

And I know that Ferrari and others have done some c**p in the past, but this thread was mainly aimed at Hamilton and the fact that this bigmouth got more luck than he deserved in my oppinion.

Kimi was better at McLaren but never won it.
And Hamilton would have never won it, if a) Massa´s car would have been more reliable or b) Alonso would have been at Ferrari in 2008.

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 Post subject: Re: We all love McLaren
PostPosted: 14 Dec 2009, 18:44  
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2007 Hamilton should have won it but didn't, Raikkonen sneaked it. But then again he won 6 races and Ham/Alo won 4.

And blizzard, Massa had technical issues yes, but the MP4/23 was not the fastest car. It was easily the 2nd best car if not slower than the BMW. Look at Heikki :O Massa also drove dirty in Japan... Hamilton won it by a point in 2008 and it was deserved. I accept many McLaren penalties: liegate Yes, the others they've had yes, but not Spa 2008. Without Spa, Hamilton would have won the title by 7 points and there'd be no questions...

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 Post subject: Re: We all love McLaren
PostPosted: 14 Dec 2009, 18:46  
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blizzard wrote:

But in Hamilton´s case it was all him...no mentioning of how good the McLaren was, in fact it was the best car on the grid for 2 years overall.



2007 Yes, it was by far the best car
2008 No. It was 2nd maybe 3rd to the Ferrari. It was just good in wet conditions.

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 Post subject: Re: We all love McLaren
PostPosted: 14 Dec 2009, 18:47  
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so this was just a Hamilton hate thread? in my opinion, still out of order.
and also, its not exactly Lewis' fault if he's overhyped by the media.

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 Post subject: Re: We all love McLaren
PostPosted: 14 Dec 2009, 18:54  
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Rachael The Great wrote:
so this was just a Hamilton hate thread? in my opinion, still out of order.
and also, its not exactly Lewis' fault if he's overhyped by the media.


Nah I wouldn´t say "hate". I don´t even know him and he hasn´t done anything to me. I might be deluded, but not THAT deluded to hate him for nothing :)
It´s just a serious dislike.

Yeah ok Phil, I agree Spa was a joke in the end.
But what about the traffic lights incident in Canada?
Or the Monaco GP, he made a mistake like many others that day and hit the wall, but his suspension remained ok and he could win a race with a big dose of luck.
Then there are Massas´s engine failure in Hungary and the pit misery in Singapore which cost him 20 points.

But if I´m honest, Felipe didn´t deserve it either in 2008, his performances in the rain were appaling bar Interlagos.

Alonso or Kubica derseved it if we´re all honest.

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