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 Post subject: Re: F1 Overtaking Statistics
PostPosted: 08 Oct 2009, 10:00  
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impatientinventor wrote:
Good now that we are on the same page of hating spec series then we have to accept that the playing field needs not be leveled but the rules need to be broadened such that a vast field of cars with a huge variance in performance is the field. As consistency comes in then processional racing is the result. The more they lock down the rules the more the cars will be the same and the less the sport will be what it was intended to be. Constructors Championship first and driver's championship second. Anyone who gripes about the advantage some teams had at the start of the season as "cheaters" or it being unfair don't understand the sport.

I for one think that the Driver's championship should go to the driver with the most points on the team that wins the constructor's championship. Not the lone dog.


I don't agree with that last bit at all. Drivers are a very important part and if one can make the difference, like, in this scenario where the better team has the better car, but a driver is able to finish higher than both of them while his car is worse, shouldn't that be rewarded?

I do agree with the rest. But, I also want the whole package. For me, F1 is tension, action, but also the highest technology and the best drivers. If there is no overtaking, why watch the race or even qualifying when you have seen the FP's? I'm not a fan of overtaking to the point where it isn't special anymore, like in nascar: "Oh, there's an overtake, oh there's another one, whatever..." but come on, there should be a little more action that a high speed parade. Ofcourse I appreciate the drivers driving on the limit, seeing them work like madmen at times like in Singapore. But there needs to be overtaking. F1 is racing, and racing is fighting for victory. I want that fight to also be on track as in the factories.

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 Post subject: Re: F1 Overtaking Statistics
PostPosted: 08 Oct 2009, 10:11  
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I'd also like drivers to have unlimited tyres so we dont have all this faffing about conserving them during the weekend. Also, they should be allowed to celebrate MotoGP style rather than be fined for doing donuts (Kimi Spa 07)

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 Post subject: Re: F1 Overtaking Statistics
PostPosted: 08 Oct 2009, 11:00  
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phil1993 wrote:
I'd also like drivers to have unlimited tyres so we dont have all this faffing about conserving them during the weekend. Also, they should be allowed to celebrate MotoGP style rather than be fined for doing donuts (Kimi Spa 07)

I definately agree with both your points in this post. But it's a bit difficult to get out of the car, place a Hamilton-land flag in the gravel, run back to your car and drive off to the pits :p

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 Post subject: Re: F1 Overtaking Statistics
PostPosted: 09 Oct 2009, 10:47  
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Found on another forum

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 Post subject: Re: F1 Overtaking Statistics
PostPosted: 09 Oct 2009, 15:20  
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Totopupu wrote:
if F1 isnt a driver competition, why you watch F1? To just look the color of the cars and the top speed?? :lol:


Laugh it off fanboy but if I don't completely stomp the spirit of statements like that to death then you won't ever understand the sport and possibly (god help us all) enough fans like you will conglomerate to F1 and actually destroy the sport.

NASA didn't start launching Challenger repeats because the ratings were great and they got lots of media exposure after it blew up. Railroads weren't built because they caused all the exploited minorities to sing these great woawfull songs. AND Ghandi didn't didn't starve himself because he wanted to loose some weight.

F1 IS NOT a driver's competition!!! It is first and foremost a constructor's competition. All of the designers, manufacturers, engineers, mechanics and support staff do NOT do it for the praise of the driver. It is a team sport and it is merely the driver who pilots the craft. Look at how the purse money is doled out. Drivers try to win because it means endorsement deals for them but as far as the FIA is concerned the driver is secondary to the sport and should barely be noticed. That is why Bernie tried to downplay the drivers with the medal system.... Because the sport is about the cars and the advancement of CARS nothing about the drivers. Sooo... Yes I do watch F1 for the cars. Yes I watch F1 for the amazing cornering abilities. And yes I watch F1 for the technological advancements. You do to but you have misplaced your fanatical following on a human instead of the machine.

I think it was San Marino 2004 where Ross Brawn said to Michale Schumacher over the radio "Michael were going to need you to turn some 23s" (when the current fast lap was a 1:25 and general pace was a 1:26) and Michael said "OK" and did it!!! I realized at that point that the Ferrari was SOOOOOO much faster than the other cars on the field that he wasn't even pushing the car. It was just that much faster. Everyone fanboyed over Schumacher and his AMAZING abilities in the wet and dry but the car had traction control and was just flat out faster than anything else on the track. In the same light you could have put put Glock into the BGP car at the beginning of this year and he would now be the world champion instead of Button. It is the car, has always been the car and will always be the car. A driver can only fail a team... never cause a win and every weekend 19 drivers fail.

Possibly it is because you don't understand the finer intricacies of the sport so you watch it from the child's mentality of OOOOooooo pretty.... and fast.... Who is driving? Wow he must be good.... drool... I enjoy the sport from a higher level of understanding. I hope that you learn to have some depth of understanding as well...

There are fair weather fans (who root for whoever is winning) and stupid fans (who don't understand the sport at all) it is easy to pick them out because they ask stupid questions or suggest changes to the sport that would destroy what the sport is.

They should they let them use their hands in soccer... but like in volleyball. Soccer would be sooooo much better.
They should use tasers in Boxing... That would be more entertaining and then it wouldn't be just the big guys who can punch hard are the champions.
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 Post subject: Re: F1 Overtaking Statistics
PostPosted: 09 Oct 2009, 15:28  
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Wow, you argued Totopupu and lost. Even I'm against what you just said. Think of 2008: Hamilton was much better in his car relative to how Massa was in his car. One driver might let the other down massively and affect the team but that shouldnt affect the other driver!

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 Post subject: Re: F1 Overtaking Statistics
PostPosted: 09 Oct 2009, 17:27  
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phil1993 wrote:
Wow, you argued Totopupu and lost. Even I'm against what you just said. Think of 2008: Hamilton was much better in his car relative to how Massa was in his car. One driver might let the other down massively and affect the team but that shouldnt affect the other driver!


Which part of what I said?

The part about the WDC going to the best driver on the WCC? Yea... I concede that point because it would destroy the WDC but I don't like how the driver overshadows the team at virtually every point. I feel that F1 drivers are just like horse jockeys and should receive the same notoriety... virtually none.

Does anyone doubt that it is the BGP001 that brought Button (or fingers crossed Rubbens) and Ross Brawn their championship this year and not their "spectacular" driving?
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 Post subject: Re: F1 Overtaking Statistics
PostPosted: 09 Oct 2009, 18:08  
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Quote:
I think it was San Marino 2004 where Ross Brawn said to Michale Schumacher over the radio "Michael were going to need you to turn some 23s" (when the current fast lap was a 1:25 and general pace was a 1:26) and Michael said "OK" and did it!!! I realized at that point that the Ferrari was SOOOOOO much faster than the other cars on the field that he wasn't even pushing the car. It was just that much faster. Everyone fanboyed over Schumacher and his AMAZING abilities in the wet and dry but the car had traction control and was just flat out faster than anything else on the track. In the same light you could have put put Glock into the BGP car at the beginning of this year and he would now be the world champion instead of Button. It is the car, has always been the car and will always be the car. A driver can only fail a team... never cause a win and every weekend 19 drivers fail.


I agree when you say Schumacher was having a very great car on 2001-2004 years. But Rubens was having the same car...
And, all F1 fans consider schumi as the best driver ever not just because of these 01-04 years but for his 96-00 years when he makes amazing and great performances on a normal car (monaco 97, Hungary 98, Spain 96, Monaco 95, ...).

And, Schumacher has always beat his teammates (verstappen, irvine, barrichello, and I dont remember the name on spa 91)

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 Post subject: Re: F1 Overtaking Statistics
PostPosted: 09 Oct 2009, 22:17  
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Chill guys, no need to get angry or insulting about this.

Could you please forget about Schumacher for once? - Thank you :O

This is about overtaking in F1 and not what laptimes Schumacher drove at Imola in 2004.

I think the FIA should have gone the other way round, instead of going for standard engines (what we nearly have atm), standard ECUs (since last year), standard tires and standard gearboxes, they should have allowed free development in all these areas. Instead they should have introduced standard front and rear wings and a standard diffusor. all 3 parts optimised for overtaking. That way, the aerodynamics would have been quite equal and overtaking would have been easier. The cost saving would also have been immense as aero development is the most expensive part of F1. And with massive differences in engines and gearboxes, the power differences between the cars would have been bigger.
Therefore --> more overtaking.

The strange thing is: In Indycar, the cars are all completely identical, but only Penske and Ganassi win races.

The problem in F1 is, the teams now all have massive resources. Therefore every team is on the highest level now.

We have multiple constructor´s champions like Williams and Renault fighting for single points now.
It´s definitely not a good thing that all the big manufacturers entered F1. It brought the level of competition to a ridiculous level. I loved it when we had normal private teams like Jordan, Sauber, Minardi or Tyrrell. In fact F1 consisted of private teams and the big manufacturers were focusing on engine supply. I would love to see F1 going back to that one day, it would be great for the sport and the storyline of a season.

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 Post subject: Re: F1 Overtaking Statistics
PostPosted: 09 Oct 2009, 23:45  
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Does anyone doubt that it is the BGP001 that brought Button (or fingers crossed Rubbens) and Ross Brawn their championship this year and not their "spectacular" driving?

+1 Agreed .. Button is doing nothing to manage better of that car. After his race wins, he was able to run away with P2 only in Monza .. All other races he has been simply scrapping the barrel. He falls in the category of being an average driver. Honestly speaking no-one puts much effort as Alonso does in that Renault. He goes hammer and tongs with a low fuel load or some sort of gimmick to try have a shot at the podium.

A perfect racing machine is one which is supposed to break down after crossing the finish line. But the current Formula 1 actually takes a complete opposite view to a racing machine. A F1 car is supposed to last for 3 races ??

I agree with impatientinventor on the technological playing field being restricted to a particular limit. The teams are in F1 to improve their technology and push them into roadcars. But rightnow what do the teams focus on ? - Better engine reliability, less fuel consumption & extracting max performance on a V8 19000 rpm limited engine. Why do you need all this ? The FIA or F1 whoever sets the rules for designing the car should have common sense. A simple diffuser design being interpreted in a different way leads to an extraordinary FIA hearing ? What happened to the days where cars looked very different from one another and had a very different powerplant ? All those days are gone.

Rise of manufacturers is unavoidable at this point, since they all see this as a scope to gain some R&D, advertising and take the technology to roadcars. But their domination has gone way too far. Currently if you look at F1 lineup for next year we have only 5 engines - Ferrari (3), Mercedes (3), Renault(3), Toyota (2) & Cosworth ( Rest ). 14 teams are going to compete merely based on aero. Seems interesting but disgusting, all we are going to see a train of cars parading around the circuit.

Schumacher & Kimi Raikkonen have managed to pull some fantastic driving by starting dead last and going on to finish on the podium, which will remain as history as per current rules if you qualify beyond 10th or 12th, you are going nowhere dude !!

Let's us see if we can one inspiring race where a driver is able to chase all way from 10th or 12th to a race win ?? Fat chance !!
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 Post subject: Re: F1 Overtaking Statistics
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2009, 06:56  
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Sanredrose wrote:
+1 Agreed .. Button is doing nothing to manage better of that car. After his race wins, he was able to run away with P2 only in Monza .. All other races he has been simply scrapping the barrel. He falls in the category of being an average driver. Honestly speaking no-one puts much effort as Alonso does in that Renault. He goes hammer and tongs with a low fuel load or some sort of gimmick to try have a shot at the podium.


I'd add Hamilton to that as well, but I think the 'Best driver in the Constructors Champion team should be the WDC' is a ridiculous idea

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 Post subject: Re: F1 Overtaking Statistics
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2009, 07:41  
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The first couple of races of 2009 were very interesting, thanks to the tyres, KERS and Fuel Load (The vast majority of exciting racing and overtaking moves has been in the first part of the race when fuel deltas are at the greatest).

Some of the better drivers are able to bring the most out of the cars on race day and differentiate themselves, by moving up the field and overtaking lesser drivers (comparatively) in better cars.
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 Post subject: Re: F1 Overtaking Statistics
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2009, 22:31  
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impatientinventor wrote:
Constructors Championship first and driver's championship second

But didn't the drivers championship (1950) exist before the constructors championship (1958)?
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 Post subject: Re: F1 Overtaking Statistics
PostPosted: 15 Oct 2009, 15:40  
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Okay, so here is how it is:

F1 is a drivers sport and a team sport. Mostly, the best cars win. But the drivers who are in it also make a difference, because of their different ability. Just look at Hamilton and Kovalainen. Both in thesame team, but very different results. One is better than the other. That's also the case with teams. But drivers DO make a difference.

So that's how it is. :p

I think the fuel thing next year will do F1 good. It will change a bit, pitstops will be alot shorter, and depend more on how fast the mechanics are, so it is becoming even more of a team sport. The tactical thing about it is that a car behaves differently under different fuel loads. If a driver makes a car suitable for the first laps where the car is heaviest, he will be albe to overtake others who have done the opposite with their setups. The qualifying will also change a bit, but I don't know how that's going to pan out yet.

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 Post subject: Re: F1 Overtaking Statistics
PostPosted: 15 Oct 2009, 18:52  
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sejtur wrote:
Just look at Hamilton and Kovalainen. Both in thesame team, but very different results. One is better than the other.


but mclaren's screwing up kova :p :lol:

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