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 Post subject: F1 Overtaking Statistics
PostPosted: 07 Oct 2009, 10:17  
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I found these interesting stats on a Ferrari forum.
They have taken it from another forum: The cliptheapex forums

Credit goes to their members especially Brogan(site founder) & cider_and_toast(super mod)

So here we go:

1984 - 1988 (Average passes down from 42 to 31) From a peak of 42 the average number of overtakes per race fell to 31 by the end of 1988. The reason for this could be two fold. Firstly, the controlling of the speeds of turbo charged cars by restricting fuel and turbo boost pressure. This led to more conservative racing where cars would have to back off towards the end of races to avoid running out of fuel. Secondly, in 1987 and19 88 there was a rise in the number of cars using normally aspirated engines and these were way off the pace of the turbo charged cars.

1989 - 1993 (Average passes down from 34 to 25) This period saw the advancement of driver aids. We see a brief spike up to an average of 34 for the 1989 season which is almost certainly due to the leveller of all teams switching to normally aspirated 3.5 litre engines. This was the time when former race-winning teams such as Williams and Lotus were stuck with using Judd engines. By 1993 almost every car on the grid had traction control, ABS, power steering, paddle shift semi-automatic gearboxes and active suspension. Though there were virtually no changes in the rules it was during this period that the technical experts of the haves proved their worth over the have-nots. During this period and the year after, more teams dropped out of F1 than at any other time in the sports’ history.

1994 This year can be taken in isolation since most of the rule changes introduced were as a result of the tragic weekend at Imola. By the end of this year the average overtake per race was down to 18, a reduction of 7 on the previous year and the biggest single drop in the year-on-year average to date.

1995 - 1997 (Average passes down from 17 to 16, with a dip down to 12 in 1996) This is an interesting period because after a further round of safety related rules and a reduction in engine capacity down to 3 litres in 1995, there were no other rule changes until the start of the 1998 season. For some reason though there was a large dip down to 12 for average overtakes in 1996 and the following year the average number of overtakes per race was back up to 17 again.

1998 - 2003 (Average passes up from 13 to 19) The fact that there is a rise in overtaking by the end of this period should not be taken as an improvement. From the average of 17 in 1997, the average number of overtakes fell to 13 by the end of 1998. This was the beginning of the "narrow track" era of F1 which saw narrower cars and the introduction of grooved tyres. Surprisingly, during this period there were very few technical rule changes and by 2002 the average number of overtakes had fallen from 16 in 1999 down to 14. There was another spike in 2003 up to 19 that may have been due to cars qualifying out of position, thanks to the new one lap qualification format.

2004 - 2009 (Average passes down from 16 to 12) This period can best be described as the "cost cutting" era. First and foremost each rule change was made on the primary basis of reducing the cost of running an F1 team. From 2003's average of 19, which was the highest number since 1993, at the end of 2004 it had fallen back to 15. The main rule change was the use of a single engine in a race weekend. In 2005 we see the lowest number of overtakes in the whole period of our data. The failed experiment of no tyre changes at pit stops and yet another round of aerodynamic rules which ironically were supposed to improve overtaking, were coupled with a 1 engine per 2 race rule. For the next 2 years it didn't matter how many rules were brought in, including changes to engine size and capacity and aero packages the number of overtakes were stuck at an average of 16 per race. This fell to 15 for 2008 which may have been cause by the introduction of yet more rules on preserving engine and gearboxes for more races and development freezes. Finally so far this season the average number of overtakes is at 15. Whether this remains at this level given that we are just over halfway through the season remains to be seen. However it is most likely to stay at around the 16 mark, thus proving that the 5 years of persistent rule changes to reduce costs and increase overtaking have actually achieved the sum total of zero.


So what can we see from this?

The greatest increase in the average number of overtakes from one season to the next was 5, between 2002 and 2003.
The greatest decrease in the average number of overtakes from one season to the next was 7, between 1993 and 1994.
During a period of pretty much unchecked technical development from 1989 to 1993 there was a decrease of 9 in the average number of overtakes over the whole period.
During a period of constant FIA rule changes from 2004 to 2008 there was an overall reduction of 1 overtake per race.

Significant increases in average overtakes per season on season have occured after:

1984: Fuel tank capacity reduced
1989 & 2006: Engine capacity changed
1997: No changes
1999: Flexible wings banned
2003: Single lap qualification

Complete analysis available on the following links:

http://www.cliptheapex.com/forum/vie...hp?f=51&t=814#

http://www.cliptheapex.com/forum/vie...php?f=51&t=822

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 Post subject: Re: F1 Overtaking Statistics
PostPosted: 07 Oct 2009, 10:53  
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I guess 2009 is even less

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 Post subject: Re: F1 Overtaking Statistics
PostPosted: 07 Oct 2009, 11:47  
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Green means more than last year. Red means less than last year.
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 Post subject: Re: F1 Overtaking Statistics
PostPosted: 07 Oct 2009, 13:10  
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I think we need to go back to the single lap qualifying. It was good for the sponsors, because every car is seen as much, and the fans get to see every car well. It is less panicky than the format we have now. Maybe we have to go back to this format because with 26/28 cars in the first session on track at thesame time is just too much, and it will come down to luck too much to have a decent gap with the car before you.

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 Post subject: Re: F1 Overtaking Statistics
PostPosted: 07 Oct 2009, 14:00  
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sejtur wrote:
I think we need to go back to the single lap qualifying. It was good for the sponsors, because every car is seen as much, and the fans get to see every car well. It is less panicky than the format we have now. Maybe we have to go back to this format because with 26/28 cars in the first session on track at thesame time is just too much, and it will come down to luck too much to have a decent gap with the car before you.


Totally agree with you.

The 2003 qualifying format was the best. Mainly because we also had some competitive action on friday, not just a boring free practice session. And yeah the single lap qualifying had appeal, one mistake and you had to start way back. And then fight your way through the field.

The knockout qualifying is ok, but not as good as the 2003 qualifying in my oppinion.

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 Post subject: Re: F1 Overtaking Statistics
PostPosted: 07 Oct 2009, 15:15  
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Here is the post I posted on Ferrari forum (same one blizzard talking about on the top of this Thread) about month ago.
That's only my opinion about this subject:

Quote:
Your thoughts on overtaking

People are talking about what more work needs to be done on overtaking from the Overtaking Working Group. What are your thoughts on that? What can be done? Can it be closed up?


I've been watching Formula One for a long time and there are those great overtaking moves but I'm not sure that in the last twenty years at least that there has been a huge amount. I think that point is that people have this rose-tinted idea that overtaking used to be fantastic and now it isn’t. I think that is selective memory. You still occasionally get some great overtaking maneuvers, just as we always used to. BTW, I don’t believe that we want cars with aero characteristics like 20 years ago.

I don’t see the need to make it a lot easier to overtake really, otherwise if overtaking becomes too easy the car that is quicker behind simply goes past and disappears again and you don’t even get the excitement of two cars battling each other for quite a number of laps. Personally I don’t think it is as much of a problem as people are making out. It is a problem, but not as much.

I think hopefully next year with the lack of refueling and perhaps the impact that has on the tires etc. there could be a bit more fun, but I think fundamentally, if you have twelve very competent teams and double that number of very competent drivers and you line them up in order of speed it's improbable they are going to overtake. And of course the closer they are in performance to each other, the less likely anyone is to pass anyone else. And this year they are really close. More then ever. And you need to be at least 1 second faster to perform easy overtaking maneuver. And today first and last on grid are 1.5 second apart.

I think that the work that the Overtaking Working Group did was good. The evidence to support that is unfortunately rear. We have had some wet races and we have not had much in the way of cars that are out of position on the grid and things like that. But actually I was having a look at this subject in last time. I think that there is no doubt that the cars can follow a little bit closer. Statistically, if you analyze the races that are worth analyzing this year there has been a little bit more overtaking. I think they probably didn’t go as far as we wished or wanted to.

OWG try to halve the time difference needed to produce a successful overtake and maybe they haven’t quite got that close. But equally I think they set a very low target for the downforce knowing that once the teams got working on it 24/7 they would rapidly bring that downforce up but I have to say it went up a little bit further than they expected it.
The fact that the downforce that has been achieved by the cars on the beginning of the year is significantly higher than anticipated. Especially teams with famous DD. Other factor that is worth to think of is that as Formula One has become more professional from end to end and better resourced from end to end on the grid the performances have closed up, so in actual fact the spread of lap time performance from end to end of the grid is about half or less what it was year ago. Now if all the cars are that much closer it just means they will always find it more difficult to overtake, so it is quite a difficult problem. If you add KERS in equation, tings are more difficult.

I think the cars are definitely better trough the field than what we had last year.

Another problem is this new racing tracks. FIA keeps to conveniently forgetting about that as it is deemed to be easier to change the cars than change the circuits.

One of the things that have been discussed for next year is to remove double diffuser, wheel fairings and not have static or rotating wheel fairings and that showed quite an adverse effect on wake and on the following car.

It is the sort of thing where you need to find three or four little things like that and that will add up to a difference, so I think it is going in the right direction but it just needs more time and imaginations from OWG side.



I just want to add one more thing:
We, on one end, all want highly sophisticated, highly technological sport, where all teams are close with development and performance, we want to level engine performance (BTW I'm against that), and on other end, we all want more overtaking. But we also have to understand that this two things can't go together. We just can't have both.

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 Post subject: Re: F1 Overtaking Statistics
PostPosted: 07 Oct 2009, 16:36  
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Ah, a very good thread. Thanks to all the contributors.

Overtaking has indeed gotten worse and looks like nobody really knows what to do with it. I doubt that FIA has the guts to forbid the double diffusers anymore since the teams were fighting over the issue so much earlier on.

About qualifying formats, they've all had their ups and downs although I agree that 2003 was probably the best. The biggest problems today are that most of the laps are completely missed from TV coverage and the drivers are hit by traffic or some weird incident every now and then which might ruin their hot lap.

I also liked the 2005 aggregate time format even though it was unpopular among the press for example. But it required that the driver was able to do a good lap with both low fuel and with fuel on board.

Obviously the single lap format wasn't entirely fair to all drivers every time since the weather could change during the qualifying which meant that some drivers never got a chance to do a clean lap in good conditions. Then again, mixed up grids provided some fun races like Suzuka 2005...

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 Post subject: Re: F1 Overtaking Statistics
PostPosted: 07 Oct 2009, 16:54  
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Very very good thread. I hope 2010 will beat some record with more drivers

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 Post subject: Re: F1 Overtaking Statistics
PostPosted: 07 Oct 2009, 17:09  
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Also, F1 (And I think everybody) wants the focus to be more on the drivers that on the cars, and I think one lap quali will be good for that.

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 Post subject: Re: F1 Overtaking Statistics
PostPosted: 07 Oct 2009, 20:05  
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Yeah, but as much as we whish that to happen, I don´t think they will change the qualifying format again. The 2003 and 2005 formats were very unpopular in the press and in the paddock aswell.

But the essential problem is the equalisation of Formula One. Very very closely matched engines, one tyre supplier, no small teams anymore and the fight for a thousand of a second. The whole grid is now seperated by 1.5 seconds, that´s ridiculous. It used to be around 5.5 seconds from first to last and with a 1.5 second deficit you used to be in the top 5.
It´s impossible to overtake when you´re just a tenth quicker per lap than the guy infront of you.

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 Post subject: Re: F1 Overtaking Statistics
PostPosted: 07 Oct 2009, 21:39  
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Quote:
Yeah, but as much as we whish that to happen, I don´t think they will change the qualifying format again. The 2003 and 2005 formats were very unpopular in the press and in the paddock aswell.

But the essential problem is the equalisation of Formula One. Very very closely matched engines, one tyre supplier, no small teams anymore and the fight for a thousand of a second. The whole grid is now seperated by 1.5 seconds, that´s ridiculous. It used to be around 5.5 seconds from first to last and with a 1.5 second deficit you used to be in the top 5.
It´s impossible to overtake when you´re just a tenth quicker per lap than the guy infront of you.


2003 and 2005 are also very appreciate by F1 fans. These 2 formats were perfect to judge drivers level.

And for the overtaking, I am sure the problem can be resolve by making 2 races ( 1 with normal grid, and 1 with reverse grid)

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 Post subject: Re: F1 Overtaking Statistics
PostPosted: 08 Oct 2009, 07:57  
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GOD DAMMIT@!!JFKLJ FSDF SD



This is ridiculous...!!!!! F1 is NOT a drivers competition!!! It IS a design and manufacture competition. If you continue try to change the sport I suggest you change sports. There are PLENTY of spec series out there... Don't continue to phk up the only real engineering competition left on the planet. The race is merely the judging ceremony. You can't complain that the competition is getting better between the teams and that it makes for less entertaining judging. GO WATCH NASCAR YOU TWITS!!!!
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 Post subject: Re: F1 Overtaking Statistics
PostPosted: 08 Oct 2009, 08:29  
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Well, my proposals didn't have the slightest thing to do with engineering, just with the structure of qualifying. And yes, F1 is a driver competition. Why do you think all teams have (want) the best drivers? If the driver sucks, the car doesn't perform well. And I hate nascar, you twit. :)

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 Post subject: Re: F1 Overtaking Statistics
PostPosted: 08 Oct 2009, 08:34  
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Good now that we are on the same page of hating spec series then we have to accept that the playing field needs not be leveled but the rules need to be broadened such that a vast field of cars with a huge variance in performance is the field. As consistency comes in then processional racing is the result. The more they lock down the rules the more the cars will be the same and the less the sport will be what it was intended to be. Constructors Championship first and driver's championship second. Anyone who gripes about the advantage some teams had at the start of the season as "cheaters" or it being unfair don't understand the sport.

I for one think that the Driver's championship should go to the driver with the most points on the team that wins the constructor's championship. Not the lone dog.
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 Post subject: Re: F1 Overtaking Statistics
PostPosted: 08 Oct 2009, 09:49  
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Quote:
This is ridiculous...!!!!! F1 is NOT a drivers competition!!! It IS a design and manufacture competition. If you continue try to change the sport I suggest you change sports. There are PLENTY of spec series out there... Don't continue to phk up the only real engineering competition left on the planet. The race is merely the judging ceremony. You can't complain that the competition is getting better between the teams and that it makes for less entertaining judging. GO WATCH NASCAR YOU TWITS!!!!


Quote:
Good now that we are on the same page of hating spec series then we have to accept that the playing field needs not be leveled but the rules need to be broadened such that a vast field of cars with a huge variance in performance is the field. As consistency comes in then processional racing is the result. The more they lock down the rules the more the cars will be the same and the less the sport will be what it was intended to be. Constructors Championship first and driver's championship second. Anyone who gripes about the advantage some teams had at the start of the season as "cheaters" or it being unfair don't understand the sport.

I for one think that the Driver's championship should go to the driver with the most points on the team that wins the constructor's championship. Not the lone dog.


lol you must be one of these strange F1 fans who prefer to watch a race like Valencia 2008 no overtake, strategic race) and not a race like Australia 2009 (beginning of season with crazy drivers who think just they must win and dont look points).

And, if F1 isnt a driver competition, why you watch F1? To just look the color of the cars and the top speed?? :lol:

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