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 Post subject: Re: When was F1's Golden Era?
PostPosted: 21 Apr 2009, 18:25  
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Ali wrote:
"Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way."


Haha, I'm liking the Tolstoy.. :)

First off, I ould say that each era to me breeds its on brand of great drivers, who will only later be considered great. In 20 years time, we will probably consider Ralf Schumacher as a kind of Jacques Laffite/Rene Arnoux type figure (obviously without the charisma), it's just that while their memory is still particularly fresh, we will continue to mock them and badmouth them until they become part of an era which we come to think of positively.

In this way, there are no particularly better eras than others in terms of drivers, in my view, except that some people will always view the latest era as the worst, simply because they preferred a previous time to the current one.

I argue for instance that now, with Alonso, Raikkonen and Hamilton and probably Vettel, Kubica, and to an extent Massa, we have a selection of truly great drivers. The only way their greatness is restricted is by each other, stealing dominance and race-wins off each other. Just because it's tight at the front, and scrappy at times, doesn't mean it's poor. You telling me Senna, Prost, Mansell and Piquet never spun off? They did. The current era's drivers need some slack too.

My point in this post is that you cannot say x era was miles better than x era, simply because of the quality of the drivers in the field. There will always be winning drivers filling the breach, and the selection of drivers is usually, when put together, of a great standard and variety of complete legends. Therefore, to me, great eras depend upon their regulations, their notable races and seasons, and their principles and qualities.

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 Post subject: Re: When was F1's Golden Era?
PostPosted: 21 Apr 2009, 18:43  
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True, in 20 years time, we may reflect on now as a great era. Think in 1986, Mansell and Senna were not yet World Champions and Alain Prost had won only 1 title. They became to be greats, racing against each other at the same time.

We could see this with Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton...

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 Post subject: Re: When was F1's Golden Era?
PostPosted: 21 Apr 2009, 18:53  
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phil1993 wrote:
True, in 20 years time, we may reflect on now as a great era. Think in 1986, Mansell and Senna were not yet World Champions and Alain Prost had won only 1 title. They became to be greats, racing against each other at the same time.

We could see this with Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton...


Exactly. I would even add Kubica and Massa in there, as the equivalents of people like Patrese and Laffite, people who won races and are also included among great lists, and really add to any era, but aren't quite at Senna/Prost/Mansell(Alonso/Hamilton/Raikkonen) level. I would put Raikkonen on there because he is a WDC. 'nuff said.

I think if anything, seasons where the top drivers had become old and monopolized the continually top teams are worse eras, simply because nothing new happens, status quo is always maintained. In this way, Schumacher and the emergance of Benetton and ditto with Jones/Williams '79> and Alonso/Renault 2003> revive F1, and stop the status quo, and the accepted great drivers growing old and monopolizing the good seats. Like what now isn't, because now is great.

More to come.. :p

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 Post subject: Re: When was F1's Golden Era?
PostPosted: 21 Apr 2009, 18:59  
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TwistedArmco wrote:
More to come.. :p

You forgot to put ten times exclamation!!!!

I don't care the great drivers at all. I can't feel their greateness while I'm watching on screen or any on-board stuff. I just can't feel it. The only thing I can feel and get excited is the racing with or without great drivers.

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 Post subject: Re: When was F1's Golden Era?
PostPosted: 21 Apr 2009, 19:11  
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Ali wrote:
TwistedArmco wrote:
More to come.. :p

You forgot to put ten times exclamation!!!!

I don't care the great drivers at all. I can't feel their greateness while I'm watching on screen or any on-board stuff. I just can't feel it. The only thing I can feel and get excited is the racing with or without great drivers.


A certain greatness is required, because that's what validates F1, and also I like to put drivers actions within individual races in context, as in what they did a year later, or what they had been before. However, to a very large extent, I agree. The racing, races and on track action makes the season, makes the era.

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 Post subject: Re: When was F1's Golden Era?
PostPosted: 21 Apr 2009, 19:42  
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MP4/4#12 wrote:
Ali wrote:
TwistedArmco wrote:
More to come.. :p

You forgot to put ten times exclamation!!!!

I don't care the great drivers at all. I can't feel their greateness while I'm watching on screen or any on-board stuff. I just can't feel it. The only thing I can feel and get excited is the racing with or without great drivers.


Of course you can`t ! If your favourite driver gave 1 full second a lap to his team mate from time to time then you would notice, watching a video doesn`t give you a clue, what did you expect ? Lightnings from their arses ? Just think about this: At the turbo days, top drivers at the exit of the Monaco tunnel came at 305 kms/h ! If that`s not special then i dunno what is.

Why are you attacking? My thoughts never change the greateness of any of drivers or greateness perception of any one. It's my own, I don't assign you any right to explain what can be felt and whan can not. Why did you bother to explain in an unneccassarily angry way with all these exclamations? If what is special is special for you, it's just for you. There is not one way to perceive the world it is. You cannot dictate, you cannot force, even for the alleged greateness that is supposed to be deemed to be somewhat respected!

I know you are a little bit emotional about the good old days or great drivers but these good old days rhetoric have said enough and I'm getting a bit sick of these "were" and "did" stuff.

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 Post subject: Re: When was F1's Golden Era?
PostPosted: 21 Apr 2009, 20:54  
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TwistedArmco wrote:
In this way, there are no particularly better eras than others in terms of drivers, in my view, except that some people will always view the latest era as the worst, simply because they preferred a previous time to the current one.
Yeah, usually people like most the era when they started watching F1. For instance, if somebody's favorite driver wins the championship now, he might think 20 years later that F1 sucks and the golden era is over. At least that's how I've noticed it tends to be.

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 Post subject: Re: When was F1's Golden Era?
PostPosted: 22 Apr 2009, 13:30  
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Why are here about 5 posts or so by MP4-#12 wo just goe like this: "...." ? Removed or what?


And back to the topic: I agree with TwistedArmco about the pure driver skill bit. He might be right about that and I´m not even saying that Mansell was a better driver than Hamilton or Prost was better than Alonso. I think it´s all pretty close there in terms of skill.
Alonso is already in the top 10 of all time for me.

But Massa is definitely not such a high caliber like Prost or whoever. Kimi who is potentially also a great driver is struggling since winning a championship.

I think we need a real quality fight for the championship between 2 or 3 great drivers in nearly equal cars. Something like Alonso in the Ferrari vs Vettel in the Red Bull or Hamilton in the McLaren vs Kimi in top form.

And the driving should be as hard as in the 80´s and 90´s. Today most of the drivers prefer to get passed rather than close the door.

I mean some of the blocking manouvers Senna, Schumacher or Alesi did in often inferior cars during the 90´s were breathtaking and pure quality.
Today´s drivers either can´t do that anymore or are in constant fear to get punished by the stewards, if the really defend hard.
Vettel showed some b*** in Melbourne and got a 10 place penalty straight away. Such accidents were common in the 90´s FFS.

Why does everything need to get punished these days?

And another thing is: The runoff areas these days, when I think of it, 2 names come to my mind straight away: Häkkinen and Hamilton.
Why? Because they are fitting my example the best.
Mika´s retirement in Monza 99, when F1 tracks all over the world had gravel traps everywhere, he made a slight mistake and lost the car into the gravel. Game over.

Today there are tarmac run off areas everywhere, Hamilton averages about 1.5 off track experiences per race, what if there where still gravel traps everywhere? Maybe 20 points less per season for him?
And others of course, Heidfeld and Kimi like going off track as well.
But Hamilton is the most drastic in that area I think.

And my last point: The technical side was much more exciting in the early 90´s. The limits were so much higher, 3.5 litre engines, V12, 2metres in width, no penalty for a engine or gearbox change and so on.

This is not a rant and I can accept, that you don´t agree with my view on things, but for me todays F1 is pretty shite compared to the late 80´s early 90´s. I would rate those days at 100% and todays F1 at 70%.

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 Post subject: Re: When was F1's Golden Era?
PostPosted: 22 Apr 2009, 13:38  
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blizzard wrote:
Why are here about 5 posts or so by MP4-#12 wo just goe like this: "...." ? Removed or what?

As it can be seen in the post, it was editted by the member itself.

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 Post subject: Re: When was F1's Golden Era?
PostPosted: 22 Apr 2009, 13:41  
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Yes, I meant removed by him. But why?

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 Post subject: Re: When was F1's Golden Era?
PostPosted: 22 Apr 2009, 15:12  
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I'm not sure about golden eras, but I can pinpoint some classic years -- 1983 comes to mind because of rule changes limiting ground effects plus turbo boost. 1986 was a great year, again because of the power and brutality of the cars, and unpredictability. 2008 was fantastic. I think the mid 70's through 1979 was pretty golden, a lot of different drivers were capable of winning, it still had the element of danger, the techology hadn't overtaken driver ability. Right now could be a golden era for reasons already stated. The drivers are doing their job, I just hope the teams, Bernie and the FIA don't screw the whole thing up.
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 Post subject: Re: When was F1's Golden Era?
PostPosted: 22 Apr 2009, 16:24  
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mid-80's up to mid-90's maybe?

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 Post subject: Re: When was F1's Golden Era?
PostPosted: 22 Apr 2009, 17:30  
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megasyxx wrote:
mid-80's up to mid-90's maybe?



Nooooo, Ali will get sick, you cant have an opinion around here, you must agree with all "they" say !
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 Post subject: Re: When was F1's Golden Era?
PostPosted: 22 Apr 2009, 17:31  
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blizzard wrote:
Why are here about 5 posts or so by MP4-#12 wo just goe like this: "...." ? Removed or what?


And back to the topic: I agree with TwistedArmco about the pure driver skill bit. He might be right about that and I´m not even saying that Mansell was a better driver than Hamilton or Prost was better than Alonso. I think it´s all pretty close there in terms of skill.
Alonso is already in the top 10 of all time for me.

But Massa is definitely not such a high caliber like Prost or whoever. Kimi who is potentially also a great driver is struggling since winning a championship.

I think we need a real quality fight for the championship between 2 or 3 great drivers in nearly equal cars. Something like Alonso in the Ferrari vs Vettel in the Red Bull or Hamilton in the McLaren vs Kimi in top form.

And the driving should be as hard as in the 80´s and 90´s. Today most of the drivers prefer to get passed rather than close the door.

I mean some of the blocking manouvers Senna, Schumacher or Alesi did in often inferior cars during the 90´s were breathtaking and pure quality.
Today´s drivers either can´t do that anymore or are in constant fear to get punished by the stewards, if the really defend hard.
Vettel showed some b*** in Melbourne and got a 10 place penalty straight away. Such accidents were common in the 90´s FFS.

Why does everything need to get punished these days?

And another thing is: The runoff areas these days, when I think of it, 2 names come to my mind straight away: Häkkinen and Hamilton.
Why? Because they are fitting my example the best.
Mika´s retirement in Monza 99, when F1 tracks all over the world had gravel traps everywhere, he made a slight mistake and lost the car into the gravel. Game over.

Today there are tarmac run off areas everywhere, Hamilton averages about 1.5 off track experiences per race, what if there where still gravel traps everywhere? Maybe 20 points less per season for him?
And others of course, Heidfeld and Kimi like going off track as well.
But Hamilton is the most drastic in that area I think.

And my last point: The technical side was much more exciting in the early 90´s. The limits were so much higher, 3.5 litre engines, V12, 2metres in width, no penalty for a engine or gearbox change and so on.

This is not a rant and I can accept, that you don´t agree with my view on things, but for me todays F1 is pretty shite compared to the late 80´s early 90´s. I would rate those days at 100% and todays F1 at 70%.


Amen

Good bye
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 Post subject: Re: When was F1's Golden Era?
PostPosted: 22 Apr 2009, 19:24  
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heheh....take it easy guys :D

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