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 Post subject: Re: Is Hamilton a great Champion? is massa a good second?
PostPosted: 05 Nov 2008, 22:35  
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Worst champion since Villeneuve? Villeneuve had ridiculous luck that year (Apart from Spain all of his wins were largely due to luck) and the only people he had to beat was Schumi in a much slower Ferrari,fast but frail McLarens and Frentzen who had the mental toughness of a baked bean.Hamilton has beaten Alonso fair and square last year,and Massa and Raikkonen in a just as fast Ferrari.Hamilton can be an ar****le and makes too many mistakes.But he still deserved the championship,because of his consistency
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 Post subject: Re: Is Hamilton a great Champion? is massa a good second?
PostPosted: 05 Nov 2008, 22:58  
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swca92 wrote:
.Hamilton has beaten Alonso fair and square last year.


I would contest that. They equalled each other in points an race wins, which comes out about right. Even if he did beat him at least slightly in your estimation, "fair and square" would be going a bit far.
The rest of your comment is true.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Hamilton a great Champion? is massa a good second?
PostPosted: 07 Nov 2008, 21:12  
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Joined: 07 Nov 2008, 20:19
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Any of the 2 would worth the championship, but i think what ultimately gifted the title to Hamilton was this: (not only glock lol)

what was the last time a team that with no team orders from at least the middle of the season(although i am against team orders, specially in the beginning of a season) won the championship? Maybe 1999 because Schumacher broke his leg.. Yes Alonso and Hamilton fought until the end of 2007, but also did Massa and Raikkonen (not in the same fashion of course) in a large part of 2008.. if Ferrari could exchange Massa and Raikkonen places now (when Raikkonen was first and Massa second of course, like in Spain) i'm pretty sure they will do that...
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 Post subject: Re: Is Hamilton a great Champion? is massa a good second?
PostPosted: 17 Nov 2008, 14:19  
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I read today an article about Hamilton and interview of Ron Dennis. In my opinion, it's just sick what they have done since he was 12 years, almost like breeding. :pout: Dennis spoke about modifying Hamiltons person, etc. Hamilton is almost like test tube human...
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 Post subject: Re: Is Hamilton a great Champion? is massa a good second?
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2008, 14:44  
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Ok.. this is a a chart of who did better than who (regardless of final positions) over the whole weekend, race by race, in my opinion.

Australia: Hamilton>Massa
Malaysia: equally rubbish, but Ham got the points.
Bahrain: Massa>Hamilton
Spain: equally good.
Turkey: Massa>Hamilton despite that overtake.
Monaco: Hamilton>Massa, but Ham was very lucky and Massa did well.
Canada: Massa>Hamilton. I'm sorry, but Hamilton's mistake was stupid.
France: Massa>Hamilton. He would have beaten him anyway without the penalty.
Britain: Hamilton>everyone>Massa.
Germany: Hamilton>Massa.
Hungary: Massa>Hamilton.
Valencia: Massa>Hamilton.
Belgium: Hamilton>Massa.
Monza: Hamilton>Massa.
Singapore: Massa>Hamilton, but briefly.
Japan: Both as bad as each other.
China: Hamilton>Massa
Brazil: Massa>Hamilton who was frankly rubbish, but scraped through by the skin of his lcuky, lucky teeth.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Hamilton a great Champion? is massa a good second?
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2008, 17:06  
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TwistedArmco wrote:
Ok.. this is a a chart of who did better than who (regardless of final positions) over the whole weekend, race by race, in my opinion.

Australia: Hamilton>Massa
Malaysia: equally rubbish, but Ham got the points.
Bahrain: Massa>Hamilton
Spain: equally good.
Turkey: Massa>Hamilton despite that overtake.
Monaco: Hamilton>Massa, but Ham was very lucky and Massa did well.
Canada: Massa>Hamilton. I'm sorry, but Hamilton's mistake was stupid.
France: Massa>Hamilton. He would have beaten him anyway without the penalty.
Britain: Hamilton>everyone>Massa.
Germany: Hamilton>Massa.
Hungary: Massa>Hamilton.
Valencia: Massa>Hamilton.
Belgium: Hamilton>Massa.
Monza: Hamilton>Massa.
Singapore: Massa>Hamilton, but briefly.
Japan: Both as bad as each other.
China: Hamilton>Massa
Brazil: Massa>Hamilton who was frankly rubbish, but scraped through by the skin of his lcuky, lucky teeth.


I agree, but Japan: Massa>Hamilton

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 Post subject: Re: Is Hamilton a great Champion? is massa a good second?
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2008, 17:20  
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phil1993 wrote:
I agree, but Japan: Massa>Hamilton


Perhaps in speed. But Massa was marginally the stupider.. :<>:

Anyway, you won't like my conclusion. This is that, on this chart, Massa slightly more frequently outraced Hamilton, but had appalling luck + 2 real mistakes (Oz + Malaysia) + 1 bad race (Silverstone), whereas Hamilton had one decision against him that was wrong because of the precedent that was made, and frankly because it was quite harsh (guess which), one bad decision that was only just the right side of the borderline (France), and no great bad luck bar that, apart from the rain stopping at Monza.

In my book, Massa was the best of the two in 2008, but Kubica for his excellence in a good car, and subsequently his struggles in a bad car with which he still scored 8/11 points finishes, was the best of the bunch, followed by Alonso, then the championship contenders and in 5th Vettel.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Hamilton a great Championship? is massa a good second?
PostPosted: 24 Nov 2008, 11:41  
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daemon wrote:
I mean a low points total is an indication of a really close battle. This has been the most exciting season I have seen in F1 (been keeping up since 2004). Good job Lewis!!!!


Thats actually in correct in a sort, because 2006 was a very close battle, but both were extremely consistent and made no errors. Only mechanical failures were the result of the two men retiring, and they went wheel to wheel and were under each others gearboxes quite often, such as Hungary, Bahrain, Imola and the sort.

I personally believe that, neither massa nor hamilton on champions, regardless of who won the title. Lewis made far too many mistakes and incorrect manouveurs in my book to be classed a champion. I mean, since when does a champion have so many penalties for cutting corners and so forth. They dont. Neither men have champion mentalities either, Japan is a prime example of the so called world champion, totally f*cking things up royally, let alone having the luck of hitting the wall enabling him to win.

In a strong sense, its just a dull championship, with 2 men whove never fought for the championship/second year. I mean, massa was good and had so many mechanical failures like kimi in 2006. Lewis must have the record for the most continuous penalties. I cant recall schumacher, Alonso, Hakkinen, and so forth having so many penalties and errors.

I swear, being a champion isnt what it used to be. it was 2 boys fighting it out, whilst the men had slower cars, bad luck, and to an extent, was c**p in the fast car (kimi).

I dont mean to detract from lewis' championship, he won end of. But it just doesnt feel an accomplishment (bar Silverstone this year, which was a damn good race if yet unchallenged), especially as this was Massa, who could hardly stay on track before 2008, even though this year to me, he was the best driver there was. His consistency was thwarted by mechanical failures, of which he himself had no control of, let alone the fantastic passes on Heikki/ Barrichello and at the start on lewis.

So, i dont think lewis is well he is a champion but hes not. He doenst drive, have the attitude or mentality of champion. I cant really explain it, but it just feels void or whatever.
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