Continuity of FIA penalties

[AzShadow]

It is just FIA's routine engine check, though, and not related to any of these events discussed here.

[syncmaster]

FIA does a alot of things if Ferrari or other team would have done any thing in their engined then their rivals would have noticed it in the race itself

[blizzard]

I thought I'd make this list of judgements for Ferrari.I'm not saying the FIA are biased,these are facts:

1994:Ferrari are accused of using illegal electronic aids with their engine/throttle system. Found to have the technology but were only warned,with no penalty.
So were Benetton and McLaren
1997:After "Jerez Gate",Schumi is found to have deliberately forces Villeneuve off the track,but is only punished with a fine and having his 2nd in the championship removed.
ONLY punished by having his 2nd place in the championship removed?! Right they should have banned him for life mister!
1998:After Ferrari complain to the FIA,rivals McLaren are forced to remove a special braking system.
The system was not legal, full stop
1999:In the 1999 Malaysian GP,the Ferraris finish 1-2,but are found after the race to have illegal bargeboards.They are disqualified,but later re-instated.
Full credit to Bernie Ecclestone, who wanted a showdown in Japan, don´t hate the player, hate the game!
2000:Mercedes are forced to remove a metal used in the construction of their engines,which had given them an advantage.
Never heard about that, might be true
2003:Ferrari complain to the FIA about the tread width of the Michelin tyres,and Michelin are forced to change their tyres.
It had to do with the deformation of the tyre walls, which according to the FIA was not legal
2006:At Monza,Alonso accused of blocking Massa,despite 1km ahead of him.Alonso demoted from 5th to 10th on the grid.Renault forced to remove a mass damper system they'd used for years previously.
The penalty for blocking was a joke, totally agree with that, credit to BErnie once again
2007:After qualifying in Hungary,Alonso demoted from 1st to 6th on the grid.
Blocking his teammate in the pitlane, you remember? Relation to Ferrari??? Can´t see any
2008:McLaren given blocking penalties in Malaysia and France.Hamilton given 10 place grid penalty for Montreal pile-up.Raikkonen and Massa not punished for infringements at Monaco and Valencia.Then at Spa...

Malaysia and France, all penalties correct, still no Ferrari car involved. The 10 place penalty after Montreal was very kind by the FIA, I saw drivers getting banned for less. Kimi and Massa both had drive through penalties in Monaco...and Valencia wasn´t Massas fault. They should have punished the team by deducting constructors point, end of story.


You´re a bit punching the air, aren´t you? Desperatly searching for some advice to feed your conspiracy theory.
You could also make a list of all penalties, Michael had been given during his time at Ferrari, I´m sure it is longer than the McLaren list...

[phil1993]

swca92 isnt making a conspiracy theory - he's just showing the facts.

[Super Aguri]

I see the paronia and conspiracy theories also has extended to f1zone.net.


I for one think this penalty was fair. I can see how others think it isn't so I'm not going to bother expaining.

[Manny6]

well done, and very well presented though I don't agree with all the points made..but alot of strong points and
facts

I'll add my views to this.
1. McLaren got away with a lot in 2007, remember.
2. Ferrari haven't historically always got away with things.
3. IMHO, Spa penalty must be said to be rather unfair.

Refer to my conclusion at the end if you don't want to be reading for 5 minutes.

1. Az is entirely right. One of McLaren's drivers would have been allowed to take the driver's championship, despite the fact that McLaren were in possession of Ferrari documents, which contributed to the car design, and comparative strategy of McLaren in the 2007 season. Therefore had an illegal car.

On top of that, Hamilton came out of the Hungary incident scot-free. In fact the FIA benefited him (maybe not Mclaren) by taking his side. He wasn't given a penalty for either kerb-hopping or double movement in Monza, one of which (double movement) I believe he should have got a penalty for. (He's a hard racer, too hard on occasion. Not that Alonso isn't of course, but that's not the point.) Finally, Hamilton wasn't given any penalty for his actions in Fuji, not just those which caused Mark Webber's crash, but also for his ridiculous slowing to a standstill, which left following cars at the end of SC periods no choice but to draw alongside and slightly ahead of him. Article 40.13 of the Sporting Code: "In order to avoid the likelihood of accidents before the safety car returns to the pits, from the point at which the lights on the car are turned out drivers must proceed at a pace which involves no erratic acceleration or braking nor any other manoeuvre which is likely to endanger other drivers or impede the restart."
Hamilton also used too many sets of wet tyres in Brazil. Luca Filippi was DQ'd in Sentul for using a set of his team-mates in practice by accident. There goes your GP2 rules/F1 rules argument, although I agree they should be consistent with each other.

2. In 2006, most Fernando fans were bawling at the FIA for Alonso's Hungary penalty, mass dampers and chicanes. Mass dampers, first, Renault used it best, but Ferrari also had rather an effective one, too remember? Of course, how mass dampers are an aerodynamic device, I don't know, but the FIA probably didn't deliberately ban it: how would they know that Renault relied on it so much? Secret meetings with Ferrari personnel? I hate conspiracy theories. The Hungary penalty was absolutely fair, and Schumi was given one straight after. The Monza one absolutely stupid, but that was Ferrari's argument, not the FIA's decision to investigate it, and apparently the FIA was given telemetry to prove it. As for cutting chicanes. Well, Schumi was given his just desserts by Heidfeld.

3. In terms of Spa. Yeah, Kimi deserved to win for his dry weather form, Hamilton deserved to win for his wet-weather mastery. In my view, Hamilton was on the borderline of right and wrong. I don't think that overtaking at the next corner is wrong in itself, if you're opportunistic and good on the brakes, but maybe Hamilton took it to the extreme. After all, he was never less than a car length behind Kimi. A little patience would have allowed him to steam past later in the lap. Kimi was on ice in that small-window Ferrari.


General Conclusion

The Ferrari bias is overhyped. Now (as in 2007/2008) it's much more often McLaren who do something suspicious or aggresive, on track or with the rules. There's also something in Lewis' persona which means he is maximum attack all the time, right on the edge. That is to be admired. But that means that right and wrong are boundaries that he is prepared to push, and answer questions later.

Overall, the bias thing is not to be believed. In this instance, though, although it was borderline, I believe the penalty was wrong. Maybe it was slightly unsporting, like overtaking under a yellow, but no danger was incurred, no real advantage was gained (although the argument that Kimi went off anyway is flawed). Lewis pushed the rules, just too much for the FIA's liking, which sets a bad precedent for the future. I can't say I'm not glad that Massa is back up there with Lewis, and you take championships and race wins however they come. But the whole race and it's conclusion leaves a bitter taste in my mouth, and the mouth of many others who are jingoistic. And I'm not, remember.

(If you don't believe that these are my original views, then see "Rate the 2008 Belgian Grand Prix", page 1, general comment. I've edited it lots of times, but the line "No penalty would probably be fair" was in the original post.)

Essay over.

[Manny6]

I am really speachless..I don't understand some of the post on here lewis was on the edge,
if the drivers are not on the edge the race looks like velencia..I was excited for such a race
and its been tarnished by favortisim..It hurts as a die hard fan waking up in the early AM to follow
every race. granted its a big thing when the top teams are penalized, but its only because those teams
are fighting for the championship and are the ones to watch.

but I do know there is karma, Mclaren looked very strong during the monza test, we the Mclaren fans are use
to such treatments by now ..though this is one of the hardest we must look towards monza, I do know Kimi will now be helping
massa but kimi can't drive for massa, Kovi will also be helping lewis, lewis is a better driver than massa..he proved he can win in china, and did well at monza last year..I don't see Mclaren getting the points back. as the stwards are pro Ferrari
and everything will be done to protect them. sorry for my approach but all the important points have already been made

[nazzac]

Kimi knocked Hamilton onto the chicane and the penalty is wrong. I hope he gets his points back.

[dazmoffman]

i can't see the FIA changing their opinion maybe we should just accept that somethings are just ment to to be and that F1 is 40% racing and 60% politics.
I hope we have a nice race at monza and all the cars drive round slowly and ask permission from one another before attempting a pass or maybe radio it through first for approval. sarcasm off.
no all joking asi
de i do hope monza is a good race and the politics b&%£$*%t stays away as this does ruin it.

[teahouse]

fia not changing that will make it consistent.......also for future.....

[swca92]

Please don't accuse me of making conspiracy theories. They are facts,and are for people to make their own opinions.I hope you are not paranoid about these allegations against the FIA,as you are obviously a Ferrari fan.I am not a Hamilton fan,I find him to be often arrogant and vain.His behaviour last season with Alonso was often despicable,though I think he is a fantastic driver and the penalty administerd on Sunday was a joke.And I must point out that in 1994 Ferrari were accused of something completely different from what Benetton and McLaren were accused of. I'm not 100% sure what it was,I believe it was to do with an illegal throttle system.

[Kimitheiceman]

lewis is a better driver than massa..

I useally don't quote on these kind of things but in this case I make an exception.
Were do you base this on...Felipe has proven he's atleast as good as Hamilton. Felipe is also by far the most sensitive driver of both.
If Lewis would have been smart he would have consolidated P2 instead of risking everything for the victory, which he didn't realy needed btw.
Would he have done that, then all the controversie wouldn't have happened.

As for the penalty, I do think he gained an advantage but maybe not enough for a penalty. As Felipe said today, Would Lewis have come of the throttle and took the chicane in a normal fasion then he never would have passed Kimi at la source, and beyond probarbly.

I, as a Ferrari and Felipe fan, hope that Lewis will get his victory back so that at the end of the season Mclaren and Hamilton can not blaime the spa controversie for losing out in the championship.

In conclusion: Hamilton is not mature enough to be a worldchampion, and that's probably going to cost him the championship this year aswell.

Best regards,
Ramon

[Manny6]

granted he would have eventually passed him. the lap, and sector times were there to show it. I agree he was not
racing KIMI at that time and second would have been ok. they all knew the rain was coming soon, why wait for a condition when you don't know whats going to happen as taking the lead when you have the chance to, kimi did what
most drivers in the lead would have, Shumacher did it many times, alonzo as well many times last year, this was not like the vettel pass in france. lewis had the inside corner kimi forced him to the grass why plunge into kimi distroy his race and car when you can give the potion back and keep on racing. all this raft is about the FIA and the panalty there was nothing wrong with the way kimi and lewis raced, it was great and exciting..thats what F1 is about seing the un thinkable happen

lewis is a better driver than massa..

I useally don't quote on these kind of things but in this case I make an exception.
Were do you base this on...Felipe has proven he's atleast as good as Hamilton. Felipe is also by far the most sensitive driver of both.
If Lewis would have been smart he would have consolidated P2 instead of risking everything for the victory, which he didn't realy needed btw.
Would he have done that, then all the controversie wouldn't have happened.

As for the penalty, I do think he gained an advantage but maybe not enough for a penalty. As Felipe said today, Would Lewis have come of the throttle and took the chicane in a normal fasion then he never would have passed Kimi at la source, and beyond probarbly.

I, as a Ferrari and Felipe fan, hope that Lewis will get his victory back so that at the end of the season Mclaren and Hamilton can not blaime the spa controversie for losing out in the championship.

In conclusion: Hamilton is not mature enough to be a worldchampion, and that's probably going to cost him the championship this year aswell.

Best regards,
Ramon

[mikhailv]

I understand its really harsh and to be honest, I was hoping for a 10 place grid penalty next race. But the fact is, he did a similar thing in Magny-cours: Cutting a chicane to gain/keep an advantage.

Anyway, this isnt because I genuinely highly dislike lewis. But the fact is, he got an advantage out of cutting the corner.

Your going to say various things. so i'll answer them now:

''Lewis was pushed off by kimi''

No he wasnt. Kimi rightly defended his line. Lewis didnt even think of attempting the chicane. He should have braked more, and followed kimi behind on the straight, took him at turn 1 or through au rouge. Not only that, but if you think thats pushing, what did Lewis do to Nelson Piquet and Massa? Infact, Kubica and massa did it in trecherous weather last year, Alonso did it to hamilton aswell. So its fair play so long as you dont cut it purposely

''He didnt gain an advantage, he let kimi through''

Yes he did let kimi through. But he was on kimi's gearbox. Lewis was what, 6-9 tenths behind him. He needed to give practically a second back to him to be in the safe side. Infact, if he didnt attempt to overtake at T1, he'dve been fine.

The problem was, lewis lifted off the throttle for 6 tenths of a second. Thats nothing. He was 6kph slower than kimi across the line. That doesnt equal the 9 tenth gap to kimis favour. Not only that but asoon as kimi was infront, lewis put his foot down and re-gained momentum which enabled him to overtake. Not only that, but lewis was very slow through T1, which is why kimi took a faster exit out by hooking it through and hitting lewis in the back. So if lewis had waited a little bit, things would have been different and he'dve had the win he fought hard and earned, apart from the below part which i will explain.

Fact is, from the footage Ive seen around, this wasnt the only thing lewis did wrong. I watched the onboard with kimi when the Williams (nakajima?) spun. Lewis was on the right hand part of the track, he could have kept on the outside and gone by leaving kimi to struggle around the williams, ensuring lewis was ahead of kimi. But he didnt. he swerved left onto the run off, and then opted to fly across the grass completely and once again, nearly got infront of kimi.

I dont mean it wrong, but how many corners did lewis cut, compared to kimi who opted to struggle to keep it on the tarmac? Exactly. Lewis was going everywhere possible to cut corners.

Thats the reason I agree with the penalty. Not only that, but its actually a drive through penalty lewis recieved, but because it was what, lap 41? he cant serve one unless there is above 5 laps to go.

Anyway, the following drivers have spoken and agreed with the penalty:

Kimi
Massa
Alonso
Trulli
Webber

Not his exact fanbase ofcourse, but trulli made a fantastic statement: 'Would lewis have cut the chicane if there was gravel? No. Would he have cut the chicane if there was a wall? No.'

Not only that, but he goes on to say that this is a keen subject brought up with the GPDA quite often, of giving position and advantage/gaps back and the correct procedure. So maybe, if Lewis was in the GPDA, he'dve known and at least have abided by them.

Another little point, was how McLaren said they checked with Whiting on the move. His replay was that it seems to be ok. 3 interesting points there. 1) McLaren must have been in doubt whether the move was legal. 2) Whiting said it 'seemed' ok. 3) Whiting isnt exactly the stewards is he.

Finally, I wish drivers like Lauda, and Jackie stewart would get lost. All they do is sprout stuff like 'FIA favour Ferrari' and 'They never get penalties'. I can think of many things McLaren got away with last year, and penalties ferrari had. Not only that, but everyones saying the championship is tainted, and there making sure ferrari win. If lewis is asgood as you all reckon, and is better than Fernando Alonso as most lovers say, then Lewis will still win the championship. Fernando did in 2006 (monza that year. THAT was a true definition of ferrari bias).

I doubt you'll agree with me. But i dont really care, im just stating how Im looking at things. And for the record, im not interested in the championship much, im more interested in the battle for fourth!

[Kimitheiceman]

I totaly agree!!! I was actualy thinking the same when McLaren asked Charlie Whiting if the move was legal or not. If you have to ask that question then that means you're in doubt yourself about the move.
One more thing though...were did you read the Alonso and Webber statement on this matter?