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 Post subject: Re: Espionage at Ferrari and McLaren
PostPosted: 11 Aug 2007, 05:21  
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The point to remember is that as Max Mosley stated, there are a number of very suspicious points about Ron's statements which dont stack up but there is no evidence available to quash his statements also. So we are in a grey area which is why there was no punishment, it is up to Ferrari to get out of this grey area with some evidence which proves McLaren knew a lot more then what they are currently letting on.

Like i have stated before, this time the hearing will allow all teams and media to be present, even if Ferrari dont get the result they are after they can launch a very good character assasination on Ron Dennis and taint him and any achievements of his team this year.

Read Max Mosleys letter from a few weeks back detailing that he has given permission for an appeal and see the points which indeed are very interesting and which point to McLaren guilt and lies.
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 Post subject: Re: Espionage at Ferrari and McLaren
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2007, 10:54  
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I have had another think about this, and I just can't get my head around the fact that Macca hasn't yet been thrown out of the championship ..

Here a couple of different points to consider .. if mclaren hasn't used that information to their advantage:

How did they, the only ex michelin team, not have any problems switching to the bridgestones? - with Ferrari being very close to Bridgestone over the years do you not think they would hold a stronger advantage than Mclaren? but they don't

Also, I have noted, other than, obviously, a few races, Mclaren does appear to know what Ferrari are doing regarding strategy, does it not?

and on another note, after reading the latest F1racing mag - the whole Monaco thing .. To win by such a margin - correct me if I am wrong, but I can't even recall Schumy destroying the field that much, although I do realize that Ferraris long wheel-base did effect them there, but where on earth did they find that pace? Kimi had, by far, the fastest car in 2005 and only won by 13s - again, where did this pace come from - something is very suspicious.

Kimi wasted the field in Australia, then for some reason Macca, all of a sudden, had way superior pace.

For Macca not to have been thrown out of the championship yet also makes me very suspicious of some of the other actions taken by the FIA - they [the FIA] really do appear to be shepherding Mclaren and their little golden boy - and as for them penalizing Alonso, how would the FIA know it wasn't a team decision to hold up lewis? - oh, and then there is the whole crane incident - I know he didn't score points that day, but he should have been DQ'd and taken a hit on his next quali IMHO

Anyway, long story short - I feel that the FIA will be responsible for the outcome of the WDC this year, either way you look at it ..

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 Post subject: Re: Espionage at Ferrari and McLaren
PostPosted: 19 Aug 2007, 13:55  
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lmcsp wrote:
I have had another think about this, and I just can't get my head around the fact that Macca hasn't yet been thrown out of the championship ..

Here a couple of different points to consider .. if mclaren hasn't used that information to their advantage:

How did they, the only ex michelin team, not have any problems switching to the bridgestones? - with Ferrari being very close to Bridgestone over the years do you not think they would hold a stronger advantage than Mclaren? but they don't

Also, I have noted, other than, obviously, a few races, Mclaren does appear to know what Ferrari are doing regarding strategy, does it not?

and on another note, after reading the latest F1racing mag - the whole Monaco thing .. To win by such a margin - correct me if I am wrong, but I can't even recall Schumy destroying the field that much, although I do realize that Ferraris long wheel-base did effect them there, but where on earth did they find that pace? Kimi had, by far, the fastest car in 2005 and only won by 13s - again, where did this pace come from - something is very suspicious.

Kimi wasted the field in Australia, then for some reason Macca, all of a sudden, had way superior pace.

For Macca not to have been thrown out of the championship yet also makes me very suspicious of some of the other actions taken by the FIA - they [the FIA] really do appear to be shepherding Mclaren and their little golden boy - and as for them penalizing Alonso, how would the FIA know it wasn't a team decision to hold up lewis? - oh, and then there is the whole crane incident - I know he didn't score points that day, but he should have been DQ'd and taken a hit on his next quali IMHO

Anyway, long story short - I feel that the FIA will be responsible for the outcome of the WDC this year, either way you look at it ..


I do agree with you, but the Alonso/Lewis thing in Hungary would have been proved via the radios... If there was radio contact telling Alonso to stay in the pitt box he would not have been penalized...

I find it annoying that Macca HAVE been found guilty but not punished... For heavens sake a one race ban for the team would bring the championship closer and more exciting (that is if the Ferraris don't mess up the weekend)... But its getting too close to the end of the season that any punishment that could change the course of the season should really be taken before Italy... F1 is a team sport, McLaren should be punished as a team, its not fair on the drivers but they have to get over it... You win as a team, you cheat as a team and you lose as a team... McLaren had Ferrari info and that is illegal, the guy who had it worked at McLaren therefore is apart of that team and anything HE knew about the Ferrari would mean that the Maccas benifited...

I hope that something IS done...
1.I believe a punishment of some sort will make the season a lot more respectable...
2.I'm all for a rookie champion, but under this shadow I don't think so... Hamiltons rookie year has been under a lot of shadow, and I think he'd benifit from learning that he's in a team...
3.I'd like Ferrari to catch up for the last part of the season... McLaren have jumped to far ahead for it to be fair-play, so a one or two race ban would bring Kimi and Massa right up close and we'll end the year fairly...
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 Post subject: Re: Espionage at Ferrari and McLaren
PostPosted: 20 Aug 2007, 07:27  
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What we also have to remember is the 2 race ban that Honda received in lew of an illegal fuel cell - and they weren't even running at the head of the field [in 2005]

If Mclaren are not kicked out or given at least a 2 race ban, I feel, my friends, that "Formula One" has failed us all - In any other sport, the team would be gone. I don't care if the drivers are penalized, as, the fact remains - they are driving cars that have been developed using Ferraris DNA - like it or not, and thats all I will say on the matter

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 Post subject: Re: Espionage at Ferrari and McLaren
PostPosted: 20 Aug 2007, 20:06  
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lmcsp wrote:
What we also have to remember is the 2 race ban that Honda received in lew of an illegal fuel cell - and they weren't even running at the head of the field [in 2005]

If Mclaren are not kicked out or given at least a 2 race ban, I feel, my friends, that "Formula One" has failed us all - In any other sport, the team would be gone. I don't care if the drivers are penalized, as, the fact remains - they are driving cars that have been developed using Ferraris DNA - like it or not, and thats all I will say on the matter


nice post :angel:

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 Post subject: Appeal Hearing
PostPosted: 28 Aug 2007, 04:21  
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September 13th is set to be a very important date in F1, not only for this years world championship but in setting very important precedents for the future conduct within F1. Thsi hearing will be even more important with the fact that any other F1 team will be invited to give their opinion on the events, this will no doubt affect McLaren considerably due to Flavio's position on the matter.

Although Ferrari will need to show evidence of McLaren with the smoking gun, not just gun powder on their hands in order to get them disqualified from the championship, of greater concern to Mclaren is the pressure other teams such as Renault and BMW may be placing on the FIA to make an example out of McLaren.

Everyone has their opinion of the events, hopefully these opinions are not tainted by ones support of a particular team. However what ever the result from the hearing, there are far too many coincidences and poor excuses from the McLaren camp for one to believe they had no prior knowledge of the documents held by Mike Coughlan. Although too lengthy to mention here, the evidence against McLaren, and more importantly the unethical conduct of Ron Dennis speaks volumes.
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 Post subject: Re: Appeal Hearing
PostPosted: 28 Aug 2007, 14:40  
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the key to it all are the individuals named nigel stepney and mike coughlan......why drag the mclaren team into this? interrogate those 2 individuals and the truth will come out :T:@

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 Post subject: Re: Appeal Hearing
PostPosted: 28 Aug 2007, 15:07  
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megasyxx wrote:
the key to it all are the individuals named nigel stepney and mike coughlan......why drag the mclaren team into this? interrogate those 2 individuals and the truth will come out :T:@


Because Mike Coughlan IS in the McLaren team :roll:: they have to punish the team as a whole... Ferrari are taking Nigel Stepney to court about it McLaren only suspended Coughlan... If McLaren as a team feel hard done by then FIRE Coughlan and take him to court for putting them though it...

Doesn't matter what way people look at it the rules are if this kind of document is in the hands of McLaren the team are punished... coughlan is still apart of McLaren so McLaren need to be apart of it...
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 Post subject: Re: Appeal Hearing
PostPosted: 28 Aug 2007, 23:19  
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Something which i believe is very suspicious is why has McLaren not fired Coughlan? He has admitted guilt and yet he has only been suspended and not fired... For a team with such honesty and integrity how can they not get rid of him? The only reason would be if there was something more that Coughlan could say that could bring McLaren down.
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 Post subject: Re: Appeal Hearing
PostPosted: 29 Aug 2007, 04:18  
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i suppose Mclaren should not get hudge panelty like disqualification from championship... but, they should get punished... Like banned for some races or deduction in points... so that championship remains OPEN not just to Ferraris...

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 Post subject: Re: Appeal Hearing
PostPosted: 29 Aug 2007, 06:23  
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I dont agree. This issue has nothing to do with what the championship points are. The FIA is not there to ensure a good show for the public. This matter is purely down to the rules of the sport. The punishment must fit the crime, thats all i want. I dont want the punishment to fit the crime with the championship in mind, this is not what a fair outcome is about.

The championship point standings should not even be spoken about. We are looking at the fact that a team has broken the rules and want a fair and just punishment for such a crime. If that is expulsion from the championship then so be it. If a not guilty verdict is upheld there will be some serious backlash against the FIA. There are far too many coincidences that implicate McLaren as have foreknowledge and being intimately involved at the highest level.

I want the truth to come out, and a just outcome, regardless of the championship points standings. The FIA is meant to be truly independent, not an arm of F~0~M. F~0~M want no punishment as they want an exciting outcome in the championship race for financial reasons, and this is fine but the FIA must not act with this in mind period.
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 Post subject: Re: Appeal Hearing
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2007, 22:29  
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If Ferrari can prove its claims that several top McLaren officials were aware of the Ferrari information for a number of months, the earlier ruling by the FIA World Council could be overturned.
McLaren risks being thrown out of the 2007 championship, and possibly next year's also if the FIA appeals panel finds it guilty of fraudulent behavior.
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 Post subject: Re: Appeal Hearing
PostPosted: 31 Aug 2007, 05:50  
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i think its all about punishment bcoz in lastly fia found guilty but didn't punish.
I expect some lot of cash as compensation to ferrari from Mclaren.
If they aren't biased then will see some points reduction or Mclaren out of championship.


A Spanish lawyer has been pulled from the panel of the FIA's International Court of Appeal ahead of the upcoming espionage hearing.
more @ - http://www.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/ ... 3502.shtml

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 Post subject: Re: Appeal Hearing
PostPosted: 31 Aug 2007, 23:56  
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No, guys Mclaren didn't really look at the Ferrari documents. :(
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 Post subject: Re: Appeal Hearing
PostPosted: 05 Sep 2007, 16:14  
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Autosport.com wrote:
Formula One's governing body said on Wednesday that it had received new evidence relating to a spying controversy involving McLaren and Ferrari and an appeal hearing scheduled for next week had been withdrawn.

The International Automobile Federation (FIA) said in a statement that its World Motor Sport Council had instead been reconvened for a hearing in Paris on September 13, the date scheduled for the appeal.

It added that representatives of championship leaders McLaren, who could face exclusion from the championship, had been invited to attend.

"Following receipt of new evidence, the World Motor Sport Council has been reconvened for a hearing in Paris on September 13," it said.

Asked about the new information, an FIA spokesman said the world body was "not in a position to make any comment at this stage."

The World Motor Sport Council decided in July not to impose any penalty on Mercedes-powered McLaren because of insufficient evidence that they had benefited from Ferrari data in the possession of their suspended chief designer Mike Coughlan.

However the governing body said at the time that the matter was not closed.

"If it is found in the future that the Ferrari information has been used to the detriment of the championship, we reserve the right to invite...McLaren back in front of the WMSC where it will face the possibility of exclusion from not only the 2007 championship but also the 2008 championship," it said .

Ferrari, McLaren's title rivals, were incensed by the original council verdict and FIA president Max Mosley sent the decision to the body's International Court of Appeal.

"The FIA President's referral of the matter to the International Court of Appeal has been withdrawn," the FIA said on Wednesday.

McLaren's Lewis Hamilton leads double world champion teammate Fernando Alonso by five points going into Sunday's Italian Grand Prix, Ferrari's home race, at Monza.

Ferrari's Felipe Massa is 15 points behind Hamilton with teammate Kimi Raikkonen one point further adrift with five races remaining.


!yahoo:

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