Gran Premio de España 2013

Who will win the Spanish Grand Prix?

Sebastian Vettel
5
23%
Kimi Raikkonen
4
18%
Lewis Hamilton
3
14%
Fernando Alonso
5
23%
Mark Webber
2
9%
Felipe Massa
1
5%
Romain Grosjean
0
No votes
Paul di Resta
0
No votes
Nico Rosberg
0
No votes
Jenson Button
1
5%
Sergio Perez
1
5%
Other
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 22

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Suntrek
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Re: Gran Premio de España 2013

Post by Suntrek » 17 May 2013, 14:45

dacer wrote:
Suntrek wrote:because that means Pirelli CAN manipulate races in the future -> better tyres -> Red Bull. worse tyres -> other team.
Not, if tyres are the same from preseasson to last race.
The problem is - they wont be. Pirelli has given in to Red Bull pressure in this particular case and tyres will be different from Canada and on.

But my whole point was if you START to manipulate any sport in any direction - you'll have to live with it and things will inevitably eventually give a bad taste in the mouth. Like now. Pirelli were asked to develop BAD tyres. Problem is - how bad is "bad"? Now, some feel they've misinterpreted "bad" - (read Red Bull) and subsequently they've been asked to make tyres "bad", buuuut.... just a little less "bad". Not THAT bad.

We've had tyre wars in the past, Michelin was the optimum tyre to be on in 2005-2006 and Bridgestone the same in 2000-2004. For example. Then you could argue Michelin/Bridgestone/fill in name of fav driver if he failed/ was on wasn't the opitmum tyre to be on. But the problem here is - the tyre manufactureres did their best. Pirelli has been asked to do their WORST (slightly exaggerated) and so they now find themselves in that impossible situation were they are suceptible to pressure and intimidation from teams. It's not their fault, they are only doing what they were asked to do. It's FIA:s fault for manpulating the championship in an attempt to attract more casual TV-viewer by thinking hey! s*** tyres is the way to go! It'll add more drama than any Puccini opera....
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.

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Re: Gran Premio de España 2013

Post by Ether » 17 May 2013, 16:04

If I were Pirelli, with F1 contract in my hand, I won't make the tyres that bad... You know, at least if FIA asked to, I would make a standard one, under advance, or average. Then if they asked more, I will make it a little bit under standard, but still average. If it's still not enough, and is going to end of the contract in F1, I would still make just a little bit below average, but it will still be good enough.

In business view, Pirelli did something stupid. I know he did well in terms of accomplishing of what F1 want. F1 might enjoy as Pirelli spice up the race for some years now. BUT.. in Business view, there is no advantage at all in this. I believe, in terms of R&D too, learning to make BAD TYRES? Are you kidding me? This might simply have no business advantage for Pirelli. Probably just Money.. as the teams paid them well. But Pirelli sure is already have bad image in peoples view..

Funny things is, I played some F1 managers game and found Pirelli is the 1st tyre available for rookie class and is the worst tyre available!! XD that's just simply amazing isn't it? Pirelli has made themselves the worst tyre supplier available! almost everywhere I find it intriguing!! And bridgestone certainly is the highest tyre supplier.
That's a fact actually... A painful fact for Pirelli. I think they simply don't get any business advantage except money.

Let's be frank, F1 is the pinacle of motorsports, they push everything to the limit. Michelin was notorious in wet tracks, I once watch in discovery channel, they (Michelin) actually having the tech to make the tracks wet artificially! They made it so to make the wet tyres so great in development. I believe it is something which is most inspired by F1 itself. F1 should have been a place to make the best on everything!
For tyres, I believe the best would be to make the car as fast as possible, and very short term of heating the tyres, durable, and anything innovatively! I don't know, maybe the tyres could pressure up and down by itself, blowing up and blowing down, etc. Just name anything we might know impossible at the first place. That is what we all think technology is about.

Let's say KERS, now KERS is available in road cars! but first KERS is implemented in F1, and develop in F1, prototype and tested in F1, then for the real products for the consumer worldwide. This should have been the things for Pirelli.

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Re: Gran Premio de España 2013

Post by mikhailv » 17 May 2013, 16:21

Ether wrote:If I were Pirelli, with F1 contract in my hand, I won't make the tyres that bad... You know, at least if FIA asked to, I would make a standard one, under advance, or average. Then if they asked more, I will make it a little bit under standard, but still average. If it's still not enough, and is going to end of the contract in F1, I would still make just a little bit below average, but it will still be good enough.

In business view, Pirelli did something stupid. I know he did well in terms of accomplishing of what F1 want. F1 might enjoy as Pirelli spice up the race for some years now. BUT.. in Business view, there is no advantage at all in this. I believe, in terms of R&D too, learning to make BAD TYRES? Are you kidding me? This might simply have no business advantage for Pirelli. Probably just Money.. as the teams paid them well. But Pirelli sure is already have bad image in peoples view..

Funny things is, I played some F1 managers game and found Pirelli is the 1st tyre available for rookie class and is the worst tyre available!! XD that's just simply amazing isn't it? Pirelli has made themselves the worst tyre supplier available! almost everywhere I find it intriguing!! And bridgestone certainly is the highest tyre supplier.
That's a fact actually... A painful fact for Pirelli. I think they simply don't get any business advantage except money.

Let's be frank, F1 is the pinacle of motorsports, they push everything to the limit. Michelin was notorious in wet tracks, I once watch in discovery channel, they (Michelin) actually having the tech to make the tracks wet artificially! They made it so to make the wet tyres so great in development. I believe it is something which is most inspired by F1 itself. F1 should have been a place to make the best on everything!
For tyres, I believe the best would be to make the car as fast as possible, and very short term of heating the tyres, durable, and anything innovatively! I don't know, maybe the tyres could pressure up and down by itself, blowing up and blowing down, etc. Just name anything we might know impossible at the first place. That is what we all think technology is about.

Let's say KERS, now KERS is available in road cars! but first KERS is implemented in F1, and develop in F1, prototype and tested in F1, then for the real products for the consumer worldwide. This should have been the things for Pirelli.
They did what the FIA wanted, they did what the teams wanted and agreed to. Thats the problem

Michelin are the best tyre manufacturer in the world, Ill be totally honest. The RX8 is the first car I chose AD08 semi-slick tyres over Pilot Super Sports (purely because I intend to do track days, and the semi-slicks would be better) but the winter tyres will be Michelin. I only have Michelin on my cars because of Formula 1, because the technology they utilise from F1, WRC, Moto GP and Le Mans into the road tyres. The quality you can clearly feel and see out in the road, its all born through motorsport. In frankness, Pirelli tyres are c**p anyway on the road, but this is what they have been asked to do.

I seriously lobbied for michelin to return to F1. Do you know why they didn't? Teams refused to change rim size from 13inch to atleast 16inch-18inch. 13inch Alloy wheels are extinct on new cars. Even crappy supermini cars have 14inch steelies. Formula 1 refuses to adapt and change. This debacle, this farce over the tyres is a prime example of teams not liking change and wanting to keep changing rules back to what suits them.

Here is some mock ups of F1 cars with 18inch, which the F1 teams were dead against;

Image

I love it. much more relevant to the public roads, something which Formula 1 has been severely lacking.

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Re: Gran Premio de España 2013

Post by kals » 17 May 2013, 17:48

Amen to all of that mikhailv

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alex1369
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Re: Gran Premio de España 2013

Post by alex1369 » 17 May 2013, 18:13

I wouldnt like 18 inch wheels, why? Because the teams need to develop a new suspension, brakes, etc... and it all costs..
So nothing is for free, how it is now its good.

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Re: Gran Premio de España 2013

Post by kals » 17 May 2013, 18:20

Pirelli have already confirmed that the cost of development and therefore supply to the teams of tyres to fit 18 inch rims would be far less than the cost of the existing tyres. F1 spends a lot of money developing and changing the suspension systems season after season, so why would it be any different moving from current wheels to 18 inchers?

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tderias
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Re: Gran Premio de España 2013

Post by tderias » 17 May 2013, 18:40

The big rims look ugly imo. We've always had big wheels small rims and it looks great. It makes it look like someone put on the wheels of a touring car...

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Re: Gran Premio de España 2013

Post by mikhailv » 17 May 2013, 19:04

i think they look great, modern, aggressive. 13inch wheels look great when the cars were thin, short, wide.

13inch now looks dwarven. old, refusal to move to even 16inch is ridiculous. The suspension changes wont cost as much as the constant tyre, aero and the fact millions are spent on a tenth of a second

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Re: Gran Premio de España 2013

Post by Ether » 17 May 2013, 23:56

I think F1 should have change on 18 inch if that's the case, simply because 18 inch will be much more used in many other types of racing car. F1 should be the example and the beginning of the development in brand new technology in every aspect. That should have been for a long time.

By the way, I have some ideas for F1 and teams to spice up the race in terms of tyres, not making the tyres bad like todays, but making more wide range of option in tyres type.
For example, now we know that Pirelli has 4 types of dry tyres: SS, Soft, Medium, Hard. Let's make it 6 or 8 types... or even more. each types has different durability, performance window, and of course the speed itself.
Then, each teams have to decide which tyres they would choose for each weekend.. In practice session, they are provided by all types of tyres, probably 2 sets each team (not driver), then they have to decide before Q, which would be their tyres choice.

SO, each teams may end up different types of tyres than other teams. For example: Ferrari and Lotus were kind on its tyres, they might choose Soft and Hard in Spain. But Mercedes and RB were not kind on its tyres, so they might choose Hard and Super Hard. This is just merely example. Their option of course would manifest on their Q performance, 1st stint of the race, and the race pace itself.

By doing this, each teams will strategically develop their cars to the nearest performance of the tyres which is the correct one for their car philosophy. Who would be the fastest? We never know, and this will be one session of discussion for commentators too. But Pirelli won't be labelled as Melting tyres anymore, and F1 could gain attraction and have great show by tyres variability.

This of course would cost more for tyres supplier, this is something what F1 wants, so they have to pay it! But I believe it won't be that much cost.

This might also widened to much more vary types of tyres. Let's say make soft tyres which works stable, quite fast for let's say.. 10 laps. and make another special soft tyres which works not that stable, no need warm up lap at all, faster than standard soft, but it suddenly drop off pace (like Pirelli nowadays spec) just after 5-6 laps and then below soft tyres performance, except they can manage to do certain degree in the tyres to preserve and maintain the rubber performances. (just like nowadays driving style). But this is just an option on the teams to choose..
This laps of course depends on the tracks itself. So, it is the teams itself who needs to decide what they want.
They may choose go as fast as they can using durable tyres which is the best choice they want and they most suitable one for their cars, OR choose another way, using softer compounds and go faster, then the durability is managed by the cars itself, which is kinder to its tyres. This might probably interesting in some way. So, if one teams losing because the tyres didn't last, then it's not Pirelli to blame, but they themselves were in wrong choice of tyres.

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Re: Gran Premio de España 2013

Post by Joey Zyla » 18 May 2013, 06:15

It's really not fair to blame Pirelli. In 2010, when Bridgestone supplied the tyres, people were complaining that 1/2-stop races were "boring" and that "there wasn't enough overtaking". Now, Pirelli came into F1 and created less durable tyres which result in 2/3-stop and 3/4-stop races, and now people are saying that "the drivers aren't pushing enough".

Not just the fans, but now even (some of) the teams are making a stink about the tyre situation.

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Re: Gran Premio de España 2013

Post by tderias » 18 May 2013, 09:30

Looks like the FIA has intervened because change in tyre specs would be a breach in the regulations. It's all quite funny now because you'd think Pirelli would have known the rules beforehand:
http://www.planetf1.com/news/3213/87194 ... afety-Only

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Re: Gran Premio de España 2013

Post by mikhailv » 18 May 2013, 10:19

Ether wrote:I think F1 should have change on 18 inch if that's the case, simply because 18 inch will be much more used in many other types of racing car. F1 should be the example and the beginning of the development in brand new technology in every aspect. That should have been for a long time.

By the way, I have some ideas for F1 and teams to spice up the race in terms of tyres, not making the tyres bad like todays, but making more wide range of option in tyres type.
For example, now we know that Pirelli has 4 types of dry tyres: SS, Soft, Medium, Hard. Let's make it 6 or 8 types... or even more. each types has different durability, performance window, and of course the speed itself.
Then, each teams have to decide which tyres they would choose for each weekend.. In practice session, they are provided by all types of tyres, probably 2 sets each team (not driver), then they have to decide before Q, which would be their tyres choice.

SO, each teams may end up different types of tyres than other teams. For example: Ferrari and Lotus were kind on its tyres, they might choose Soft and Hard in Spain. But Mercedes and RB were not kind on its tyres, so they might choose Hard and Super Hard. This is just merely example. Their option of course would manifest on their Q performance, 1st stint of the race, and the race pace itself.

By doing this, each teams will strategically develop their cars to the nearest performance of the tyres which is the correct one for their car philosophy. Who would be the fastest? We never know, and this will be one session of discussion for commentators too. But Pirelli won't be labelled as Melting tyres anymore, and F1 could gain attraction and have great show by tyres variability.

This of course would cost more for tyres supplier, this is something what F1 wants, so they have to pay it! But I believe it won't be that much cost.

This might also widened to much more vary types of tyres. Let's say make soft tyres which works stable, quite fast for let's say.. 10 laps. and make another special soft tyres which works not that stable, no need warm up lap at all, faster than standard soft, but it suddenly drop off pace (like Pirelli nowadays spec) just after 5-6 laps and then below soft tyres performance, except they can manage to do certain degree in the tyres to preserve and maintain the rubber performances. (just like nowadays driving style). But this is just an option on the teams to choose..
This laps of course depends on the tracks itself. So, it is the teams itself who needs to decide what they want.
They may choose go as fast as they can using durable tyres which is the best choice they want and they most suitable one for their cars, OR choose another way, using softer compounds and go faster, then the durability is managed by the cars itself, which is kinder to its tyres. This might probably interesting in some way. So, if one teams losing because the tyres didn't last, then it's not Pirelli to blame, but they themselves were in wrong choice of tyres.
Everyone would go for the same tyres though. Why go for the Supersofts which are 2 secs a lap quicker than the hards say, when the hards last 10 laps longer meaning your going to 6 stop in a race, while they 2 or 3 stop. What we have now is the best option from 2007; Choose which of the two compounds you use.

The thing I laugh at is, Teams saved tyres for the race, yet all the top 10 ran a lap and Mercedes burnt through their tyres whereas RBR, Lotus and Ferrari saved a set or two. So if they have sets spar doing a 3 stop race, why is 4 stop such a big deal? Are the teams saying they have too many tyres because they have how many sets a weekend? If 4 stops is too much yet they can save tyres, be competative on a saturday and be competative on a sunday.....

But yeah I agree with the 18inch. 16-19inch are the norm for car alloy wheels now. So 16inch should be the minimum rim size for F1.

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