2012 Shell Belgian Grand Prix

Who will win the Belgian Grand Prix?

Poll ended at 30 Aug 2012, 07:20

Fernando Alonso
2
6%
Mark Webber
0
No votes
Sebastian Vettel
0
No votes
Lewis Hamilton
6
18%
Kimi Raikkonen
20
61%
Nico Rosberg
0
No votes
Jenson Button
1
3%
Romain Grosjean
0
No votes
Sergio Perez
1
3%
Kamui Kobayashi
0
No votes
Pastor Maldonado
0
No votes
Michael Schumacher
3
9%
Felipe Massa
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 33

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François
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Re: 2012 Shell Belgian Grand Prix

Post by François » 04 Sep 2012, 08:59

...

[help]

Posted: Today, 02:48

It's okay, maybe it was a bit too late into the night for you to think clearly? Take a fresh look at it this morning and I'm sure you'll have a laugh with us.

Attempting to take you seriously (I'm trying very hard), by that ludicrous logic, the first two or three drivers that lost control and started the mayhem in which Dan Wheldon lost his life last year should've been charged with manslaughter. Same with Jacques Villeneuve and Ralf Schumacher when their tangle caused the death of a marshall in 2001.
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Re: 2012 Shell Belgian Grand Prix

Post by sportingcp » 04 Sep 2012, 11:55

tderias wrote:Ok, this might seem crazy, but hear me out till the end. I think YOU HAVE TO take the consequences of an incident to help you judge what penalty to issue.

Look at it this way; a hired killer is assigned to assassinate a certain target. He finds the target amidst a crowd, aims his sights, and takes the shot. The bullet rips through the victim, and also makes contact with a nearby fire extinguisher that explodes and kills 4 more civilians in the process. Now, if that killer gets caught and trialed in court, do you think the charges against him would only be concerned with the fact that he killed that specific target, or will they also include the loss of four other innocent civilians?

I know I've gone all Hollywood on this one, but the story is very similar to what we saw happen in the race if you can read between the lines. The way I see it, Grosjean's domino effect that followed his initial mistake must be taken into account.


Dafuq did I just read :p... So, what about Maldonado? :lol: How does he "fit" in that story?

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Re: 2012 Shell Belgian Grand Prix

Post by tderias » 04 Sep 2012, 13:53

François wrote:...

[help]

Posted: Today, 02:48

It's okay, maybe it was a bit too late into the night for you to think clearly? Take a fresh look at it this morning and I'm sure you'll have a laugh with us.

Attempting to take you seriously (I'm trying very hard), by that ludicrous logic, the first two or three drivers that lost control and started the mayhem in which Dan Wheldon lost his life last year should've been charged with manslaughter. Same with Jacques Villeneuve and Ralf Schumacher when their tangle caused the death of a marshall in 2001.


Why are you mixing two different law dimensions into one? I didn't say Grosjean should be accused of attempted murder of Fernando Alonso, because he came pretty close, or DC for attempted murder on Wurz. I didn't say that. Racing regulations and the penalties they come with are one thing, and real life law and the penalties that come with that are another. A football player doesn't get 6 months of prison time for breaking another one's leg with a dangerous tackle; he gets a red card.

I only used a real life scenario to better explain an equivalent situation in the sport's scenario. These two should be separated, simply because F1 is a dangerous sport, and any severe injuries or even fatalities cannot possibly be judged in a real life court, however they can certainly be judged within the sports law (racing regulations).

My point is, the accident that was triggered by Grosjean is the equivalent of Grosjean going out and hitting Perez, Hamilton, Alonso and Kobayashi individually, each in its own separate incident. Because, at the end of the day, if you ask any of these unlucky drivers why they didn't finish the race, they'll tell you its because someone made a mistake and my car got hit. Even Perez said that they had to pay the price of one driver's mistake, or something along those lines.

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Re: 2012 Shell Belgian Grand Prix

Post by tderias » 04 Sep 2012, 13:58

sportingcp wrote:
tderias wrote:Ok, this might seem crazy, but hear me out till the end. I think YOU HAVE TO take the consequences of an incident to help you judge what penalty to issue.

Look at it this way; a hired killer is assigned to assassinate a certain target. He finds the target amidst a crowd, aims his sights, and takes the shot. The bullet rips through the victim, and also makes contact with a nearby fire extinguisher that explodes and kills 4 more civilians in the process. Now, if that killer gets caught and trialed in court, do you think the charges against him would only be concerned with the fact that he killed that specific target, or will they also include the loss of four other innocent civilians?

I know I've gone all Hollywood on this one, but the story is very similar to what we saw happen in the race if you can read between the lines. The way I see it, Grosjean's domino effect that followed his initial mistake must be taken into account.


Dafuq did I just read :p... So, what about Maldonado? :lol: How does he "fit" in that story?


LOL. He doesn't. It'll be a different story for Pastor, this one was only to explain what happened in Spa :p

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Re: 2012 Shell Belgian Grand Prix

Post by François » 04 Sep 2012, 15:01

tderias wrote:Why are you mixing two different law dimensions into one? I didn't say Grosjean should be accused of attempted murder of Fernando Alonso, because he came pretty close, or DC for attempted murder on Wurz. I didn't say that. Racing regulations and the penalties they come with are one thing, and real life law and the penalties that come with that are another. A football player doesn't get 6 months of prison time for breaking another one's leg with a dangerous tackle; he gets a red card.

I only used a real life scenario to better explain an equivalent situation in the sport's scenario. These two should be separated, simply because F1 is a dangerous sport, and any severe injuries or even fatalities cannot possibly be judged in a real life court, however they can certainly be judged within the sports law (racing regulations).

My point is, the accident that was triggered by Grosjean is the equivalent of Grosjean going out and hitting Perez, Hamilton, Alonso and Kobayashi individually, each in its own separate incident. Because, at the end of the day, if you ask any of these unlucky drivers why they didn't finish the race, they'll tell you its because someone made a mistake and my car got hit. Even Perez said that they had to pay the price of one driver's mistake, or something along those lines.

Real life... you mean the kind of real life where hitmen accidentally shoot fire extinguishers through their target's bodies, and they explode and splatter innocent civilians' brains all over the place?

I don't know what crack you're on but ok. Are you making a parallel between an accidental motorsport crash AND attempted murder with collateral damage? Not only silly but entirely meaningless, unless you can somehow prove that Grosjean had planned and deliberately attempted to take Hamilton out of the race. There's a difference between making a mistake and purposely breaking the law (or sporting regulations for that matter). Consequently, you don't judge the consequences of an accident and that of a criminal act the same way.

Lastly, you say F1 is a dangerous sport and severe injuries/fatalities cannot possibly be judged in a "real life court". Hello? Law isn't abolished on the race track. Senna's death in 1994 prompted a lenghty legal process in Italy about liabilities (Williams and Newey were sued, possibly the track officials as well). Massa's family would've been well within their right to sue Brawn GP for compensation following his 2009 accident. Grand Prix circuits aren't areas of lawlessness.
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Re: 2012 Shell Belgian Grand Prix

Post by Vorull » 04 Sep 2012, 15:02

d'Ambrosio is gong to drive in Monza :) Good for him!

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Re: 2012 Shell Belgian Grand Prix

Post by tderias » 04 Sep 2012, 16:01

François wrote:
tderias wrote:Why are you mixing two different law dimensions into one? I didn't say Grosjean should be accused of attempted murder of Fernando Alonso, because he came pretty close, or DC for attempted murder on Wurz. I didn't say that. Racing regulations and the penalties they come with are one thing, and real life law and the penalties that come with that are another. A football player doesn't get 6 months of prison time for breaking another one's leg with a dangerous tackle; he gets a red card.

I only used a real life scenario to better explain an equivalent situation in the sport's scenario. These two should be separated, simply because F1 is a dangerous sport, and any severe injuries or even fatalities cannot possibly be judged in a real life court, however they can certainly be judged within the sports law (racing regulations).

My point is, the accident that was triggered by Grosjean is the equivalent of Grosjean going out and hitting Perez, Hamilton, Alonso and Kobayashi individually, each in its own separate incident. Because, at the end of the day, if you ask any of these unlucky drivers why they didn't finish the race, they'll tell you its because someone made a mistake and my car got hit. Even Perez said that they had to pay the price of one driver's mistake, or something along those lines.

Real life... you mean the kind of real life where hitmen accidentally shoot fire extinguishers through their target's bodies, and they explode and splatter innocent civilians' brains all over the place?

I don't know what crack you're on but ok. Are you making a parallel between an accidental motorsport crash AND attempted murder with collateral damage? Not only silly but entirely meaningless, unless you can somehow prove that Grosjean had planned and deliberately attempted to take Hamilton out of the race. There's a difference between making a mistake and purposely breaking the law (or sporting regulations for that matter). Consequently, you don't judge the consequences of an accident and that of a criminal act the same way.

Lastly, you say F1 is a dangerous sport and severe injuries/fatalities cannot possibly be judged in a "real life court". Hello? Law isn't abolished on the race track. Senna's death in 1994 prompted a lenghty legal process in Italy about liabilities (Williams and Newey were sued, possibly the track officials as well). Massa's family would've been well within their right to sue Brawn GP for compensation following his 2009 accident. Grand Prix circuits aren't areas of lawlessness.


I never said Grosjean's move was made on purpose. Tell me this, did Maldonado jump back on track in Valencia to purposely put Lewis into the wall? Did he hold his inside position in Silverstone to purposely DNF Sergio Perez? The answer to both these questions is No, yet they are still acts that got him penalised. My comparison was to demonstrate punishable acts in both spectrums, real life and F1.

If it makes you sleep, think of it as 4 good college friends; Checo, KayKay, Nando and Rogro in a car. Rogro, who's driving down the highway at speeds of 120km/h, is a bit hungover and sleepy after partying hard with his mates last night, and accidentally allows the car to sway to the left into the path of a fast approaching Porsche, driven by a man called Hammy. The two cars make contact, and due to high speeds, their car gets flipped and tumbles across the road, killing all the passengers along with Hammy. Miraculously, Rogro escapes unscathed, but gets set for a date in court. What will the charges against him look like?

Moral of the story; the consequences of any incident must be taken into account in order for justice to be served in the eyes of all the affected parties. On another day, the same thing might have happened down his local neighborhood street, resulting in only a small scratch on the Porsche's paint job. In this case, a certain paycheck would resolve the matter, and the word 'court' wouldn't be mentioned for the whole day. Now, is that story a better resemblance of real life, because I'm starting to run of plots here lol.

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Re: 2012 Shell Belgian Grand Prix

Post by MavF1 » 04 Sep 2012, 16:55

tderias wrote:Moral of the story; the consequences of any incident must be taken into account in order for justice to be served in the eyes of all the affected parties. On another day, the same thing might have happened down his local neighborhood street, resulting in only a small scratch on the Porsche's paint job. In this case, a certain paycheck would resolve the matter, and the word 'court' wouldn't be mentioned for the whole day. Now, is that story a better resemblance of real life, because I'm starting to run of plots here lol.


Seriously, you have to step back from your TV/PC screen and watch fewer action movies/play fewer shooters. Then give your analogies another try.

I totally agree with this:
tderias wrote:[...]Grosjean's domino effect that followed his initial mistake must be taken into account.


And I'm glad that he was banned tbh, the stewards had to take action on this one. But there's no need to bring assasinations and violent car crashes into this, jeez.

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Re: 2012 Shell Belgian Grand Prix

Post by tderias » 04 Sep 2012, 17:11

I was only trying to get my point through lol. I admit the stories might have been a bit overkill to say the least... lol, "over-kill".

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Re: 2012 Shell Belgian Grand Prix

Post by François » 04 Sep 2012, 17:14

MavF1 wrote:Seriously, you have to step back from your TV/PC screen and watch fewer action movies/play fewer shooters.

Nothing else to add.
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Re: 2012 Shell Belgian Grand Prix

Post by phil1993 » 04 Sep 2012, 19:48

:lol:

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Re: 2012 Shell Belgian Grand Prix

Post by Ferrariman60 » 04 Sep 2012, 20:00

tderias wrote:I was only trying to get my point through lol. I admit the stories might have been a bit overkill to say the least... lol, "over-kill".


I understood your analogy perfectly well. :D
Requiescat in pace, Jules Bianchi


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Re: 2012 Shell Belgian Grand Prix

Post by tderias » 04 Sep 2012, 22:31

Ferrariman60 wrote:
tderias wrote:I was only trying to get my point through lol. I admit the stories might have been a bit overkill to say the least... lol, "over-kill".


I understood your analogy perfectly well. :D


Yaay! :C: *high fives* :lol:

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Re: 2012 Shell Belgian Grand Prix

Post by sejtur » 05 Sep 2012, 09:12

It was a very nice race, some nice overtakings especially the one by kimi on eau rouge. That guy has b***.
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Re: 2012 Shell Belgian Grand Prix

Post by François » 05 Sep 2012, 09:50

b*** of steel, yeah.

And so does Seb Vettel, who allegedly "can't overtake" but pulled it off half a dozen times, and nowhere near the DRS zone. Driver of the day as far as I'm concerned, no contest.

EDIT: lol apparently you can't say the plural form of "ball". Good thing this isn't a tennis forum :lol:
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