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 Post subject: Re: Speculation-thread: Will Kimi be in WRC or F1 next seaso
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2010, 15:22  
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Wolfie wrote:
sleenster wrote:

I think one thing people forget is that even though Kimi came into F1 very quickly, he was not consistently beating his teammates (Heidfeld and Coulthard) in his first two years. Only in his third year in F1, he became much much better than both of them. This indicates to me that even though he is a great driver, he does need some time to reach his full potential, because he did not reach his full potential in F1 until his third year.


Sleenster, you also have to remember that Kimi wasn't allowed to make his own setups in Sauber until the 4th GP and he started beating Heidfeld after that and Heidfeld stopped talking to Kimi after that. In the endseason he wasn't given the best possibilities because Sauber was quite pissed with Kimi leaving to McLaren.

In McLaren again DC started complaining when Kimi started beating him and Dennis ordered Adrian Newey to help DC together with his race engineer.

I'm not saying Kimi is flawless, I'm saying that endseason 2009 showed exactly what happens when he gets the support he needs.

They talked ages ago on the Finnish forum about what it means when Kimi's front suspension was changed and the car became understeering (which Massa admitted) and someone said that it means extra work for Kimi and his race engineer to try and make the car as oversteering as possible with setups.

And at the same time people were gloating at how rubbish Kimi was with setup and how Massa managed to do his setups better than Kimi - now when people are bashing Massa they make the same mistake again; judge him without knowing the details.


It doesn't mean that Kimi hasn't made any improvement at all as an F1 driver throughout the years. I think he definitely improved in driving ability as the years went on because he has to start from somewhere and he started as a rookie in F1. My point is that he's starting as a rookie in WRC and we should be giving him the same time frame as we did in F1 too. He was not immediately challenging the top guys in F1 in his very first year and we should not expect that in WRC either.
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 Post subject: Re: Speculation-thread: Will Kimi be in WRC or F1 next seaso
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2010, 15:25  
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Wolfie wrote:
spinster wrote:
sleenster wrote:
Good point, spinster.
Kimi was intelligent enough to know that Mercedes was going to be a crappy car this year, even Schumacher didn't see that coming :lol:


I remember a chat that I had last year in Spa with Kimi first engineer Jacky Eeckelaert. He said that Brawn was just very lucky of having the resources of Honda (He was also engineer at Honda in 2008) and the double diffusor in the first 6-7 races. After that you could already see that Brawn couldn't follow the speed of upgrading like Mclaren, Red Bull,... and he said it was because all good engineers, workers were already gone from the team because Brawn didn't have the budget to deploy 900 persons like Honda did. Mercedes this year have that problem and you can notice that too again... Look to Renault, Williams who even develops faster.

A week ago i saw an interview where someone of mercedes said that they need new and good personel to work...

And Jacky said that Kimi is very well informed about such situations...

And he said Kimi call him sometimes at night when he's completely TUUUTTTT :lol: I thought i was going to die i laughed so hard


Wow, thank you Spinster for sharing this with us :hug:

It's reassuring to know that he knows what is going on and is intelligent enough to see what kind of cars the teams develop.

As for Redbull, since it's been discussed here, one mustn't forget that Mark said some quite strong words in public about his employer and we don't know what the plan in the team is for next year. If his employer can take it then good, no complaints. But I highly suspect that it caused some rift between Mark and the team. There are things you just don't go and say out in public.

Funny how on other forums people hailed Mark for his outspokenness but at the same time they call Kimi a whiner for opening his mouth about Renault's actions.

I don't know what they are thinking in Red Bull but it wouldn't surprise me if they would choose to end Mark's contract based upon him bashing the team in public. A team has a brand to protect afterall and Red Bull's negative PR-image must have been something they think about in higher positions.

What do you think?


At the same time i had a talk with Martin Brundle (i have my pics on facebook if you wanna see them... my name there is Wim Spinne Spinoy) and he told my how much Mclaren wanted kimi back and how many teams would want Kimi as a driver.

What we see and hear in public is so different from when you're in the paddock and talks to some people from other teams...

I remember talking to Webber and Vettel there when we had a meet and great and dinner with them and I also talked about kimi...and be sure every one of the drivers knows how fast Kimi is and what was his problem in Ferrari...and for sure it wasn't his motivation!

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 Post subject: Re: Speculation-thread: Will Kimi be in WRC or F1 next seaso
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2010, 15:26  
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All these desperate talks of kimi back to F1 disappoints me a bit. I have always said that patience would be the real key to success for kimi in WRC. We will have to see these rough phase if WRC becomes a career choice of kimi for next few years.

I can see lots of impatient kimi fans. Nothing against those who want him back in F1 but it will be totally unfair even if kimi does not give himself some more time to Rallying. Already investing 1 year and one CANNOT conclude anything in such a short span.

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 Post subject: Re: Speculation-thread: Will Kimi be in WRC or F1 next seaso
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2010, 15:27  
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sleenster wrote:
Wolfie wrote:
sleenster wrote:

I think one thing people forget is that even though Kimi came into F1 very quickly, he was not consistently beating his teammates (Heidfeld and Coulthard) in his first two years. Only in his third year in F1, he became much much better than both of them. This indicates to me that even though he is a great driver, he does need some time to reach his full potential, because he did not reach his full potential in F1 until his third year.


Sleenster, you also have to remember that Kimi wasn't allowed to make his own setups in Sauber until the 4th GP and he started beating Heidfeld after that and Heidfeld stopped talking to Kimi after that. In the endseason he wasn't given the best possibilities because Sauber was quite pissed with Kimi leaving to McLaren.

In McLaren again DC started complaining when Kimi started beating him and Dennis ordered Adrian Newey to help DC together with his race engineer.

I'm not saying Kimi is flawless, I'm saying that endseason 2009 showed exactly what happens when he gets the support he needs.

They talked ages ago on the Finnish forum about what it means when Kimi's front suspension was changed and the car became understeering (which Massa admitted) and someone said that it means extra work for Kimi and his race engineer to try and make the car as oversteering as possible with setups.

And at the same time people were gloating at how rubbish Kimi was with setup and how Massa managed to do his setups better than Kimi - now when people are bashing Massa they make the same mistake again; judge him without knowing the details.


It doesn't mean that Kimi hasn't made any improvement at all as an F1 driver throughout the years. I think he definitely improved in driving ability as the years went on because he has to start from somewhere and he started as a rookie in F1. My point is that he's starting as a rookie in WRC and we should be giving him the same time frame as we did in F1 too. He was not immediately challenging the top guys in F1 in his very first year and we should not expect that in WRC either.


Because he wans't in a top car... now he drives the best car in WRC... Do you think that kimi as a rookie in a Ferrari at that time wouldn't have fought for the win??

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 Post subject: Re: Speculation-thread: Will Kimi be in WRC or F1 next seaso
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2010, 15:30  
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spinster wrote:
Wolfie wrote:
spinster wrote:
sleenster wrote:
Good point, spinster.
Kimi was intelligent enough to know that Mercedes was going to be a crappy car this year, even Schumacher didn't see that coming :lol:


I remember a chat that I had last year in Spa with Kimi first engineer Jacky Eeckelaert. He said that Brawn was just very lucky of having the resources of Honda (He was also engineer at Honda in 2008) and the double diffusor in the first 6-7 races. After that you could already see that Brawn couldn't follow the speed of upgrading like Mclaren, Red Bull,... and he said it was because all good engineers, workers were already gone from the team because Brawn didn't have the budget to deploy 900 persons like Honda did. Mercedes this year have that problem and you can notice that too again... Look to Renault, Williams who even develops faster.

A week ago i saw an interview where someone of mercedes said that they need new and good personel to work...

And Jacky said that Kimi is very well informed about such situations...

And he said Kimi call him sometimes at night when he's completely TUUUTTTT :lol: I thought i was going to die i laughed so hard


Wow, thank you Spinster for sharing this with us :hug:

It's reassuring to know that he knows what is going on and is intelligent enough to see what kind of cars the teams develop.

As for Redbull, since it's been discussed here, one mustn't forget that Mark said some quite strong words in public about his employer and we don't know what the plan in the team is for next year. If his employer can take it then good, no complaints. But I highly suspect that it caused some rift between Mark and the team. There are things you just don't go and say out in public.

Funny how on other forums people hailed Mark for his outspokenness but at the same time they call Kimi a whiner for opening his mouth about Renault's actions.

I don't know what they are thinking in Red Bull but it wouldn't surprise me if they would choose to end Mark's contract based upon him bashing the team in public. A team has a brand to protect afterall and Red Bull's negative PR-image must have been something they think about in higher positions.

What do you think?


At the same time i had a talk with Martin Brundle (i have my pics on facebook if you wanna see them... my name there is Wim Spinne Spinoy) and he told my how much Mclaren wanted kimi back and how many teams would want Kimi as a driver.

What we see and hear in public is so different from when you're in the paddock and talks to some people from other teams...

I remember talking to Webber and Vettel there when we had a meet and great and dinner with them and I also talked about kimi...and be sure every one of the drivers knows how fast Kimi is and what was his problem in Ferrari...and for sure it wasn't his motivation!


McLaren definitely wanted Kimi badly. The only problem is that last year, he already rejected the McLaren, Red Bull and Mercedes seats. I haven't heard him say anything to show that he has changed his mind. All we have heard from him is "I WANT to stay in rally" and "I probably will not go back to F1".
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 Post subject: Re: Speculation-thread: Will Kimi be in WRC or F1 next seaso
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2010, 15:31  
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luieluv wrote:
All these desperate talks of kimi back to F1 disappoints me a bit. I have always said that patience would be the real key to success for kimi in WRC. We will have to see these rough phase if WRC becomes a career choice of kimi for next few years.

I can see lots of impatient kimi fans. Nothing against those who want him back in F1 but it will be totally unfair even if kimi does not give himself some more time to Rallying. Already investing 1 year and one CANNOT conclude anything in such a short span.


It's not of giving him not the time.. I'm absolutely sure he can reach some podiums on tarmac within a few years...but is that the reason why we supported kimi? I support and supported him because he's a winner and not a mediocre driver...that's my point.

I just want him to drive in my homecountry (Belgium) as the Master of Spa because he really is there THE MASTER. Kimi is a pure racer and that's something you can see on real racing circuits (Spa, Suzuka, Monaco...)

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 Post subject: Re: Speculation-thread: Will Kimi be in WRC or F1 next seaso
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2010, 15:32  
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spinster wrote:
At the same time i had a talk with Martin Brundle (i have my pics on facebook if you wanna see them... my name there is Wim Spinne Spinoy) and he told my how much Mclaren wanted kimi back and how many teams would want Kimi as a driver.

What we see and hear in public is so different from when you're in the paddock and talks to some people from other teams...

I remember talking to Webber and Vettel there when we had a meet and great and dinner with them and I also talked about kimi...and be sure every one of the drivers knows how fast Kimi is and what was his problem in Ferrari...and for sure it wasn't his motivation!

Thanks! Your stories are interesting :cool:

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 Post subject: Re: Speculation-thread: Will Kimi be in WRC or F1 next seaso
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2010, 15:33  
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spinster wrote:
sleenster wrote:
Wolfie wrote:
sleenster wrote:

I think one thing people forget is that even though Kimi came into F1 very quickly, he was not consistently beating his teammates (Heidfeld and Coulthard) in his first two years. Only in his third year in F1, he became much much better than both of them. This indicates to me that even though he is a great driver, he does need some time to reach his full potential, because he did not reach his full potential in F1 until his third year.


Sleenster, you also have to remember that Kimi wasn't allowed to make his own setups in Sauber until the 4th GP and he started beating Heidfeld after that and Heidfeld stopped talking to Kimi after that. In the endseason he wasn't given the best possibilities because Sauber was quite pissed with Kimi leaving to McLaren.

In McLaren again DC started complaining when Kimi started beating him and Dennis ordered Adrian Newey to help DC together with his race engineer.

I'm not saying Kimi is flawless, I'm saying that endseason 2009 showed exactly what happens when he gets the support he needs.

They talked ages ago on the Finnish forum about what it means when Kimi's front suspension was changed and the car became understeering (which Massa admitted) and someone said that it means extra work for Kimi and his race engineer to try and make the car as oversteering as possible with setups.

And at the same time people were gloating at how rubbish Kimi was with setup and how Massa managed to do his setups better than Kimi - now when people are bashing Massa they make the same mistake again; judge him without knowing the details.


It doesn't mean that Kimi hasn't made any improvement at all as an F1 driver throughout the years. I think he definitely improved in driving ability as the years went on because he has to start from somewhere and he started as a rookie in F1. My point is that he's starting as a rookie in WRC and we should be giving him the same time frame as we did in F1 too. He was not immediately challenging the top guys in F1 in his very first year and we should not expect that in WRC either.


Because he wans't in a top car... now he drives the best car in WRC... Do you think that kimi as a rookie in a Ferrari at that time wouldn't have fought for the win??

I think he was a better driver in 2005 than in 2001, for instance. He is a great driver, but he was a rookie in 2001. Part of developing as a driver is learning how to setup your car as well.
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 Post subject: Re: Speculation-thread: Will Kimi be in WRC or F1 next seaso
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2010, 15:33  
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sleenster wrote:
spinster wrote:
Wolfie wrote:
spinster wrote:
sleenster wrote:
Good point, spinster.
Kimi was intelligent enough to know that Mercedes was going to be a crappy car this year, even Schumacher didn't see that coming :lol:


I remember a chat that I had last year in Spa with Kimi first engineer Jacky Eeckelaert. He said that Brawn was just very lucky of having the resources of Honda (He was also engineer at Honda in 2008) and the double diffusor in the first 6-7 races. After that you could already see that Brawn couldn't follow the speed of upgrading like Mclaren, Red Bull,... and he said it was because all good engineers, workers were already gone from the team because Brawn didn't have the budget to deploy 900 persons like Honda did. Mercedes this year have that problem and you can notice that too again... Look to Renault, Williams who even develops faster.

A week ago i saw an interview where someone of mercedes said that they need new and good personel to work...

And Jacky said that Kimi is very well informed about such situations...

And he said Kimi call him sometimes at night when he's completely TUUUTTTT :lol: I thought i was going to die i laughed so hard


Wow, thank you Spinster for sharing this with us :hug:

It's reassuring to know that he knows what is going on and is intelligent enough to see what kind of cars the teams develop.

As for Redbull, since it's been discussed here, one mustn't forget that Mark said some quite strong words in public about his employer and we don't know what the plan in the team is for next year. If his employer can take it then good, no complaints. But I highly suspect that it caused some rift between Mark and the team. There are things you just don't go and say out in public.

Funny how on other forums people hailed Mark for his outspokenness but at the same time they call Kimi a whiner for opening his mouth about Renault's actions.

I don't know what they are thinking in Red Bull but it wouldn't surprise me if they would choose to end Mark's contract based upon him bashing the team in public. A team has a brand to protect afterall and Red Bull's negative PR-image must have been something they think about in higher positions.

What do you think?


At the same time i had a talk with Martin Brundle (i have my pics on facebook if you wanna see them... my name there is Wim Spinne Spinoy) and he told my how much Mclaren wanted kimi back and how many teams would want Kimi as a driver.

What we see and hear in public is so different from when you're in the paddock and talks to some people from other teams...

I remember talking to Webber and Vettel there when we had a meet and great and dinner with them and I also talked about kimi...and be sure every one of the drivers knows how fast Kimi is and what was his problem in Ferrari...and for sure it wasn't his motivation!


McLaren definitely wanted Kimi badly. The only problem is that last year, he already rejected the McLaren, Red Bull and Mercedes seats. I haven't heard him say anything to show that he has changed his mind. All we have heard from him is "I WANT to stay in rally" and "I probably will not go back to F1".


Did you ever heard him rejecting those seats last year??? Nope...

For me Kimi had enough of F1 because of 2008 and 2009... And he wanted to clear his mind and do something else...and that's why he never ruled out F1.

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 Post subject: Re: Speculation-thread: Will Kimi be in WRC or F1 next seaso
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2010, 15:34  
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luieluv wrote:
All these desperate talks of kimi back to F1 disappoints me a bit. I have always said that patience would be the real key to success for kimi in WRC. We will have to see these rough phase if WRC becomes a career choice of kimi for next few years.

I can see lots of impatient kimi fans. Nothing against those who want him back in F1 but it will be totally unfair even if kimi does not give himself some more time to Rallying. Already investing 1 year and one CANNOT conclude anything in such a short span.

I fully agree you. Both Kimi and Kaj are talked for patience :thumbsup:

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 Post subject: Re: Speculation-thread: Will Kimi be in WRC or F1 next seaso
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2010, 15:35  
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Moominpappa wrote:
spinster wrote:
At the same time i had a talk with Martin Brundle (i have my pics on facebook if you wanna see them... my name there is Wim Spinne Spinoy) and he told my how much Mclaren wanted kimi back and how many teams would want Kimi as a driver.

What we see and hear in public is so different from when you're in the paddock and talks to some people from other teams...

I remember talking to Webber and Vettel there when we had a meet and great and dinner with them and I also talked about kimi...and be sure every one of the drivers knows how fast Kimi is and what was his problem in Ferrari...and for sure it wasn't his motivation!

Thanks! Your stories are interesting :cool:


i'm just lucky because my friend gave me always press tickets so I'm just lucky and when I'm there I want to talk and know what's going on... This year I rejected my ticket because F1 without kimi isn't the same for me... although I watch F1 since 1990 (when i was 8 years old)... supporting alesi and after that Mika

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 Post subject: Re: Speculation-thread: Will Kimi be in WRC or F1 next seaso
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2010, 15:35  
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spinster wrote:
Did you ever heard him rejecting those seats last year??? Nope...

For me Kimi had enough of F1 because of 2008 and 2009... And he wanted to clear his mind and do something else...and that's why he never ruled out F1.

Uh.... there was that interview with Helmut Marko just a few weeks back where he said Kimi rejected the RBR seat and said he wanted to go rallying instead. Did you see it?
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 Post subject: Re: Speculation-thread: Will Kimi be in WRC or F1 next seaso
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2010, 15:37  
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sleenster wrote:
spinster wrote:
sleenster wrote:
Wolfie wrote:
sleenster wrote:

I think one thing people forget is that even though Kimi came into F1 very quickly, he was not consistently beating his teammates (Heidfeld and Coulthard) in his first two years. Only in his third year in F1, he became much much better than both of them. This indicates to me that even though he is a great driver, he does need some time to reach his full potential, because he did not reach his full potential in F1 until his third year.


Sleenster, you also have to remember that Kimi wasn't allowed to make his own setups in Sauber until the 4th GP and he started beating Heidfeld after that and Heidfeld stopped talking to Kimi after that. In the endseason he wasn't given the best possibilities because Sauber was quite pissed with Kimi leaving to McLaren.

In McLaren again DC started complaining when Kimi started beating him and Dennis ordered Adrian Newey to help DC together with his race engineer.

I'm not saying Kimi is flawless, I'm saying that endseason 2009 showed exactly what happens when he gets the support he needs.

They talked ages ago on the Finnish forum about what it means when Kimi's front suspension was changed and the car became understeering (which Massa admitted) and someone said that it means extra work for Kimi and his race engineer to try and make the car as oversteering as possible with setups.

And at the same time people were gloating at how rubbish Kimi was with setup and how Massa managed to do his setups better than Kimi - now when people are bashing Massa they make the same mistake again; judge him without knowing the details.


It doesn't mean that Kimi hasn't made any improvement at all as an F1 driver throughout the years. I think he definitely improved in driving ability as the years went on because he has to start from somewhere and he started as a rookie in F1. My point is that he's starting as a rookie in WRC and we should be giving him the same time frame as we did in F1 too. He was not immediately challenging the top guys in F1 in his very first year and we should not expect that in WRC either.


Because he wans't in a top car... now he drives the best car in WRC... Do you think that kimi as a rookie in a Ferrari at that time wouldn't have fought for the win??

I think he was a better driver in 2005 than in 2001, for instance. He is a great driver, but he was a rookie in 2001. Part of developing as a driver is learning how to setup your car as well.


Of course you're right and he was a better driver in 2005 than in 2001 BUT even in 2001 he could fight for the win in a top car and in WRC he isn't able to do because he's a circuit racer ever since he started to do racing...

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 Post subject: Re: Speculation-thread: Will Kimi be in WRC or F1 next seaso
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2010, 15:39  
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sleenster wrote:
spinster wrote:
Did you ever heard him rejecting those seats last year??? Nope...

For me Kimi had enough of F1 because of 2008 and 2009... And he wanted to clear his mind and do something else...and that's why he never ruled out F1.

Uh.... there was that interview with Helmut Marko just a few weeks back where he said Kimi rejected the RBR seat and said he wanted to go rallying instead. Did you see it?


Yes I saw that...but I mean did you heared in 2009 Kimi saying that he rejected the drive?? that's what I mean...

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 Post subject: Re: Speculation-thread: Will Kimi be in WRC or F1 next seaso
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2010, 15:40  
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spinster wrote:
Wolfie wrote:
sleenster wrote:

I think one thing people forget is that even though Kimi came into F1 very quickly, he was not consistently beating his teammates (Heidfeld and Coulthard) in his first two years. Only in his third year in F1, he became much much better than both of them. This indicates to me that even though he is a great driver, he does need some time to reach his full potential, because he did not reach his full potential in F1 until his third year.


Sleenster, you also have to remember that Kimi wasn't allowed to make his own setups in Sauber until the 4th GP and he started beating Heidfeld after that and Heidfeld stopped talking to Kimi after that. In the endseason he wasn't given the best possibilities because Sauber was quite pissed with Kimi leaving to McLaren.

In McLaren again DC started complaining when Kimi started beating him and Dennis ordered Adrian Newey to help DC together with his race engineer.

I'm not saying Kimi is flawless, I'm saying that endseason 2009 showed exactly what happens when he gets the support he needs.

They talked ages ago on the Finnish forum about what it means when Kimi's front suspension was changed and the car became understeering (which Massa admitted) and someone said that it means extra work for Kimi and his race engineer to try and make the car as oversteering as possible with setups.

And at the same time people were gloating at how rubbish Kimi was with setup and how Massa managed to do his setups better than Kimi - now when people are bashing Massa they make the same mistake again; judge him without knowing the details.


You're so right wolfie... and Kimi was indead from the very beginning very fast in F1 because race circuits are his natural habitat. And in rally you can see that he has it damn difficult with gravel and mud stages, he always make mistakes on them... i never saw kimi make those many mistakes in the beginning of his f1 career...

I just can't believe that Kimi will invest in something where he isn't sure to reach the top. And I know that he still has to learn a lot and that you can't be a top driver within a year but even on rallies who're new to everyone you can see the difference is the same as in other rallies...

The top drivers don't know the roads on their mind too...they just listen to their co-driver and drive. Look at Ogier who won Japan where he drove for the first time...

Give kimi a car in f1 within the 5 best cars and he'll for sure reach the podium... whatever may happen and it won't take long to have it. I wanna chear for Kimi on f1 podiums very soon again. If, for example, Kubica would be kimi and drove in rally with this results what would you say? He was damn good? Driving around in the best car... he's fighting with drivers who'll never win a championship or even a rally...


Hi Spinster :wave:

Kimi was a sensation in F1 when he came there in 2001. Even FIA adviced other drivers to learn from Räikkönen's driving.

Peter Sauber said that normally it would require 10-20 million dollars to develop the car half a second faster - or hiring Schumacher. Sauber said that his team got this advantage for free due to Räikkönen and Heidfeld.

Spinster, you are so right about how things are seen differently by putting someone else in Kimi's position. It's sad to see :(

There might be an interesting combo going on since Citroen would want Kimi because of the free PR they get, then again Red Bull seem to bee very closely connected to Kimi. It could well be that they both have been waiting for Kimi's decision (which I think has been made ages ago) and what is also worth mentioning is that Matezitch has said he has a close relationship with Kimi.

Matezitch is a man who probably has his share of groupies and I'm sure he appreciates Kimi's honest and equal attitude towards him much more than someone who is bending over to please him :p

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