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 Post subject: Re: Speculation-thread: Will Kimi be in WRC or F1 next seaso
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2010, 06:00  
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beefree88 wrote:
spinster wrote:
That's right...but he told that already enough that he always wanna fight for a win and I never believe that Kimi will keep racing for low places and be honoust guys the difference is more or less the same as always between the top WRC drivers and kimi...

and we all looking forward when he really can drive on tarmac...why? because he's a circuit driver and no one will ever be and F1 WDC and WRC champion...

Have you ever seen someone quoting that he or she is sure Kimi is absolutely Rally champion material?

Kimi needs to come back...


He's not racing for low places, he's racing for improving his skills and to find his limits. He probably does not assume he already reached them after only about a dozen of races.
Kimi knows that to achieve anything he has to learn the ropes first, than put a lot of energy into whatever he does. The first part is hard for him, because he's extremely competitive, but if he feels he's improving, and he could achieve more, that helps to keep his motivation up. That was how he rose through the ranks in circuit racing, persisted, and finally suceeded in F1. I think he probably has moments, days, or even weeks when he feels down, but he's used to fighting hard for his goals.


Great points beefree :shhh:

I think one thing people forget is that even though Kimi came into F1 very quickly, he was not consistently beating his teammates (Heidfeld and Coulthard) in his first two years. Only in his third year in F1, he became much much better than both of them. This indicates to me that even though he is a great driver, he does need some time to reach his full potential, because he did not reach his full potential in F1 until his third year.
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 Post subject: Re: Speculation-thread: Will Kimi be in WRC or F1 next seaso
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2010, 06:52  
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 Post subject: Re: Speculation-thread: Will Kimi be in WRC or F1 next seaso
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2010, 08:11  
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Many are pointing out that Kimi wants to win..but Kimi has grown since , has gone thru difficult times for example at Macca when his engines blew up all the time.
He knows and has been saiying all the time, this is his learning year and he has to be patient and in fact Kaj has been saying the same , like Kimi is extremely patient and Kaj as been proud about that, knowing Kimi wants to succeed.
So Kimi has knowingly taken this approach and I dont doupt it has been difficult for him. After I heard he drove out in France I thought, this is eating him alive.
I have a feeling he wants to try the second year, despite the fact that Vatanen said he doesnt know if Kimi can reach the top. Kimi wants to know. He doesnt know until he drives second year and see if he continues to develop better and better.
On the other hand I think he belongs to tarmac but does Kimi believe it? He is known to be stubborn type and maybe this is the one of his stubborn moments.
Will see.
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 Post subject: Re: Speculation-thread: Will Kimi be in WRC or F1 next seaso
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2010, 08:29  
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apple wrote:
Many are pointing out that Kimi wants to win..but Kimi has grown since , has gone thru difficult times for example at Macca when his engines blew up all the time.
He knows and has been saiying all the time, this is his learning year and he has to be patient and in fact Kaj has been saying the same , like Kimi is extremely patient and Kaj as been proud about that, knowing Kimi wants to succeed.
So Kimi has knowingly taken this approach and I dont doupt it has been difficult for him. After I heard he drove out in France I thought, this is eating him alive.
I have a feeling he wants to try the second year, despite the fact that Vatanen said he doesnt know if Kimi can reach the top. Kimi wants to know. He doesnt know until he drives second year and see if he continues to develop better and better.
On the other hand I think he belongs to tarmac but does Kimi believe it? He is known to be stubborn type and maybe this is the one of his stubborn moments.
Will see.


I agree with you Apple. He has to stay in rally at least for one more year to get a clearer picture about his chances. Having the notes, knowing the stages help him to focus crearly on driving. will see :zz:
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 Post subject: Re: Speculation-thread: Will Kimi be in WRC or F1 next seaso
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2010, 08:43  
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Kriss wrote:
apple wrote:
Many are pointing out that Kimi wants to win..but Kimi has grown since , has gone thru difficult times for example at Macca when his engines blew up all the time.
He knows and has been saiying all the time, this is his learning year and he has to be patient and in fact Kaj has been saying the same , like Kimi is extremely patient and Kaj as been proud about that, knowing Kimi wants to succeed.
So Kimi has knowingly taken this approach and I dont doupt it has been difficult for him. After I heard he drove out in France I thought, this is eating him alive.
I have a feeling he wants to try the second year, despite the fact that Vatanen said he doesnt know if Kimi can reach the top. Kimi wants to know. He doesnt know until he drives second year and see if he continues to develop better and better.
On the other hand I think he belongs to tarmac but does Kimi believe it? He is known to be stubborn type and maybe this is the one of his stubborn moments.
Will see.


I agree with you Apple. He has to stay in rally at least for one more year to get a clearer picture about his chances. Having the notes, knowing the stages help him to focus crearly on driving. will see :zz:


Maybe you are right but what if it turns out next year that he can't reach the top. The way back to F1 would be even more harder if not impossible. :( I think, though it might be a naive thought of mine, that they know it already. They should know about his pace, they should analyse it, how much is it, is it good enough. I fear that he might end up without any seat at the end of 2011. No rally, no F1. What if if it turns out that he cannot reach the top in rally then he won't drive there either. :(

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 Post subject: Re: Speculation-thread: Will Kimi be in WRC or F1 next seaso
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2010, 08:45  
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Good points, apple. Yes, Kimi is stubborn. ha haa.. I think a second year in WRC is in the order. But I won't be surprised if he is already thinking at some remote level, 'how far can I go on the gravels?'. So, second year in WRC is most likely going to happen. But I won't go to the extent of saying Kimi has closed the door on F1. As stubborn he is, he is also as intelligent.

The most normal thing that would have happened if it had not been for the Ferrari fiasco is this - Kimi continues in Ferrari for one or two more years, and he continues to gain more and more experience in rally gradually while he is in F1. Whether it is a good thing or bad thing, a break came up with his Ferrari tenure ending abruptly. Kimi took that chance for a full year in WRC. We will have to see where this goes from here. Whatever it is, I am sure it would be very good. :cool:

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 Post subject: Re: Speculation-thread: Will Kimi be in WRC or F1 next seaso
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2010, 08:47  
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SpaMaster wrote:
As stubborn he is, he is also as intelligent.


Sure! :)

SpaMaster wrote:
The most normal thing that would have happened if it had not been for the Ferrari fiasco is this - Kimi continues in Ferrari for one or two more years, and he continues to gain more and more experience in rally gradually while he is in F1.


That would have happened and that would have been the best scenario for me. hahahaa

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 Post subject: Re: Speculation-thread: Will Kimi be in WRC or F1 next seaso
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2010, 09:22  
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Kinga wrote:
SpaMaster wrote:
As stubborn he is, he is also as intelligent.


Sure! :)

SpaMaster wrote:
The most normal thing that would have happened if it had not been for the Ferrari fiasco is this - Kimi continues in Ferrari for one or two more years, and he continues to gain more and more experience in rally gradually while he is in F1.


That would have happened and that would have been the best scenario for me. hahahaa


For him too, which is why he intended to do it that way. Except things turned against him, and now he has to find out what works him best

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 Post subject: Re: Speculation-thread: Will Kimi be in WRC or F1 next seaso
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2010, 09:43  
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Kinga wrote:
Kriss wrote:
apple wrote:
Many are pointing out that Kimi wants to win..but Kimi has grown since , has gone thru difficult times for example at Macca when his engines blew up all the time.
He knows and has been saiying all the time, this is his learning year and he has to be patient and in fact Kaj has been saying the same , like Kimi is extremely patient and Kaj as been proud about that, knowing Kimi wants to succeed.
So Kimi has knowingly taken this approach and I dont doupt it has been difficult for him. After I heard he drove out in France I thought, this is eating him alive.
I have a feeling he wants to try the second year, despite the fact that Vatanen said he doesnt know if Kimi can reach the top. Kimi wants to know. He doesnt know until he drives second year and see if he continues to develop better and better.
On the other hand I think he belongs to tarmac but does Kimi believe it? He is known to be stubborn type and maybe this is the one of his stubborn moments.
Will see.


I agree with you Apple. He has to stay in rally at least for one more year to get a clearer picture about his chances. Having the notes, knowing the stages help him to focus crearly on driving. will see :zz:


Maybe you are right but what if it turns out next year that he can't reach the top. The way back to F1 would be even more harder if not impossible. :( I think, though it might be a naive thought of mine, that they know it already. They should know about his pace, they should analyse it, how much is it, is it good enough. I fear that he might end up without any seat at the end of 2011. No rally, no F1. What if if it turns out that he cannot reach the top in rally then he won't drive there either. :(


The catch is, that he won't know if he can reach the top unless he tries. Anything else is just speculation. He's walking a pretty untried path so there's not much reference point to judge his performance either. Yes, he might fall, yes it's risky and nobody else did it before, but do you really expect him not to try ?

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 Post subject: Re: Speculation-thread: Will Kimi be in WRC or F1 next seaso
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2010, 09:50  
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Who says that he gets podiums at F1? :huh: I don´t believe in the RB theory so I think that if he returns it would be in a midfield team which means that he wouldn´t get any podiums either :confused:

I want him to continue and try to improve :) It might still take 2 years until he can top 3 results but I have patience when it comes to this :)

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 Post subject: Re: Speculation-thread: Will Kimi be in WRC or F1 next seaso
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2010, 12:28  
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Kinga wrote:
Kriss wrote:
apple wrote:
Many are pointing out that Kimi wants to win..but Kimi has grown since , has gone thru difficult times for example at Macca when his engines blew up all the time.
He knows and has been saiying all the time, this is his learning year and he has to be patient and in fact Kaj has been saying the same , like Kimi is extremely patient and Kaj as been proud about that, knowing Kimi wants to succeed.
So Kimi has knowingly taken this approach and I dont doupt it has been difficult for him. After I heard he drove out in France I thought, this is eating him alive.
I have a feeling he wants to try the second year, despite the fact that Vatanen said he doesnt know if Kimi can reach the top. Kimi wants to know. He doesnt know until he drives second year and see if he continues to develop better and better.
On the other hand I think he belongs to tarmac but does Kimi believe it? He is known to be stubborn type and maybe this is the one of his stubborn moments.
Will see.


I agree with you Apple. He has to stay in rally at least for one more year to get a clearer picture about his chances. Having the notes, knowing the stages help him to focus crearly on driving. will see :zz:


Maybe you are right but what if it turns out next year that he can't reach the top. The way back to F1 would be even more harder if not impossible. :( I think, though it might be a naive thought of mine, that they know it already. They should know about his pace, they should analyse it, how much is it, is it good enough. I fear that he might end up without any seat at the end of 2011. No rally, no F1. What if if it turns out that he cannot reach the top in rally then he won't drive there either. :(


The thing is Kimi basically had his one shot to make a choice between F1 and rally, and he chose rally. Even if he really wanted to return to F1 after a year of rally, there really isn't any realistic options open to him. Everyone knew this would be the situation, because all of the top teams have contracts in place, I am pretty sure Kimi understood the situation before he decided to go to WRC. And even if Kimi somehow returned to F1 the chances of actually driving a championship winning car is very slim. He still has a lot to learn in rally, I think he fully understand the difficulties he has to face before he can challenge the top 6. In fact the whole level of difficulty and the whole challenge that WRC represents to Kimi, is properly a huge part of the attraction for him. But many people like Tommi Makinen for example thinks that Kimi could reach the top of rally. But even if Kimi are not able to reach the top he might still prefer rallying over F1. We as fans just think about where he will drive the fastest or have the best results, but Kimi has properly weighed up a lot of other things as well to make his decision.

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 Post subject: Re: Speculation-thread: Will Kimi be in WRC or F1 next seaso
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2010, 14:53  
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spinster wrote:
To be honoust...What do we think of a champion of Michael Schumacher (which i don't like)... do you think he'll just keep driving around to make some numbers and to destroy his name? Nope!

You know, Michael Schumacher always loved F1, he was around even when not driving. I don't think that Kimi loves F1 THAT much.
Anyway for comeback to F1 we need some kind of force majeure.
Even driver's politics in RBR isn't 100% clear to me.

But I'm sure Kimi will do what's best for him ))

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 Post subject: Re: Speculation-thread: Will Kimi be in WRC or F1 next seaso
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2010, 15:09  
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sleenster wrote:

I think one thing people forget is that even though Kimi came into F1 very quickly, he was not consistently beating his teammates (Heidfeld and Coulthard) in his first two years. Only in his third year in F1, he became much much better than both of them. This indicates to me that even though he is a great driver, he does need some time to reach his full potential, because he did not reach his full potential in F1 until his third year.


Sleenster, you also have to remember that Kimi wasn't allowed to make his own setups in Sauber until the 4th GP and he started beating Heidfeld after that and Heidfeld stopped talking to Kimi after that. In the endseason he wasn't given the best possibilities because Sauber was quite pissed with Kimi leaving to McLaren.

In McLaren again DC started complaining when Kimi started beating him and Dennis ordered Adrian Newey to help DC together with his race engineer.

I'm not saying Kimi is flawless, I'm saying that endseason 2009 showed exactly what happens when he gets the support he needs.

They talked ages ago on the Finnish forum about what it means when Kimi's front suspension was changed and the car became understeering (which Massa admitted) and someone said that it means extra work for Kimi and his race engineer to try and make the car as oversteering as possible with setups.

And at the same time people were gloating at how rubbish Kimi was with setup and how Massa managed to do his setups better than Kimi - now when people are bashing Massa they make the same mistake again; judge him without knowing the details.

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 Post subject: Re: Speculation-thread: Will Kimi be in WRC or F1 next seaso
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2010, 15:18  
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spinster wrote:
sleenster wrote:
Good point, spinster.
Kimi was intelligent enough to know that Mercedes was going to be a crappy car this year, even Schumacher didn't see that coming :lol:


I remember a chat that I had last year in Spa with Kimi first engineer Jacky Eeckelaert. He said that Brawn was just very lucky of having the resources of Honda (He was also engineer at Honda in 2008) and the double diffusor in the first 6-7 races. After that you could already see that Brawn couldn't follow the speed of upgrading like Mclaren, Red Bull,... and he said it was because all good engineers, workers were already gone from the team because Brawn didn't have the budget to deploy 900 persons like Honda did. Mercedes this year have that problem and you can notice that too again... Look to Renault, Williams who even develops faster.

A week ago i saw an interview where someone of mercedes said that they need new and good personel to work...

And Jacky said that Kimi is very well informed about such situations...

And he said Kimi call him sometimes at night when he's completely TUUUTTTT :lol: I thought i was going to die i laughed so hard


Wow, thank you Spinster for sharing this with us :hug:

It's reassuring to know that he knows what is going on and is intelligent enough to see what kind of cars the teams develop.

As for Redbull, since it's been discussed here, one mustn't forget that Mark said some quite strong words in public about his employer and we don't know what the plan in the team is for next year. If his employer can take it then good, no complaints. But I highly suspect that it caused some rift between Mark and the team. There are things you just don't go and say out in public.

Funny how on other forums people hailed Mark for his outspokenness but at the same time they call Kimi a whiner for opening his mouth about Renault's actions.

I don't know what they are thinking in Red Bull but it wouldn't surprise me if they would choose to end Mark's contract based upon him bashing the team in public. A team has a brand to protect afterall and Red Bull's negative PR-image must have been something they think about in higher positions.

What do you think?

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 Post subject: Re: Speculation-thread: Will Kimi be in WRC or F1 next seaso
PostPosted: 13 Oct 2010, 15:19  
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Wolfie wrote:
sleenster wrote:

I think one thing people forget is that even though Kimi came into F1 very quickly, he was not consistently beating his teammates (Heidfeld and Coulthard) in his first two years. Only in his third year in F1, he became much much better than both of them. This indicates to me that even though he is a great driver, he does need some time to reach his full potential, because he did not reach his full potential in F1 until his third year.


Sleenster, you also have to remember that Kimi wasn't allowed to make his own setups in Sauber until the 4th GP and he started beating Heidfeld after that and Heidfeld stopped talking to Kimi after that. In the endseason he wasn't given the best possibilities because Sauber was quite pissed with Kimi leaving to McLaren.

In McLaren again DC started complaining when Kimi started beating him and Dennis ordered Adrian Newey to help DC together with his race engineer.

I'm not saying Kimi is flawless, I'm saying that endseason 2009 showed exactly what happens when he gets the support he needs.

They talked ages ago on the Finnish forum about what it means when Kimi's front suspension was changed and the car became understeering (which Massa admitted) and someone said that it means extra work for Kimi and his race engineer to try and make the car as oversteering as possible with setups.

And at the same time people were gloating at how rubbish Kimi was with setup and how Massa managed to do his setups better than Kimi - now when people are bashing Massa they make the same mistake again; judge him without knowing the details.


You're so right wolfie... and Kimi was indead from the very beginning very fast in F1 because race circuits are his natural habitat. And in rally you can see that he has it damn difficult with gravel and mud stages, he always make mistakes on them... i never saw kimi make those many mistakes in the beginning of his f1 career...

I just can't believe that Kimi will invest in something where he isn't sure to reach the top. And I know that he still has to learn a lot and that you can't be a top driver within a year but even on rallies who're new to everyone you can see the difference is the same as in other rallies...

The top drivers don't know the roads on their mind too...they just listen to their co-driver and drive. Look at Ogier who won Japan where he drove for the first time...

Give kimi a car in f1 within the 5 best cars and he'll for sure reach the podium... whatever may happen and it won't take long to have it. I wanna chear for Kimi on f1 podiums very soon again. If, for example, Kubica would be kimi and drove in rally with this results what would you say? He was damn good? Driving around in the best car... he's fighting with drivers who'll never win a championship or even a rally...

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