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Who will win the 2008 Japanese Grand Prix
Poll ended at 12 Oct 2008, 17:06
Lewis Hamilton 22%  22%  [ 18 ]
Felipe Massa 37%  37%  [ 31 ]
Robert Kubica 7%  7%  [ 6 ]
Kimi Räikkönen 16%  16%  [ 13 ]
Nick Heidfeld 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Heikki Kovalainen 1%  1%  [ 1 ]
Fernando Alonso 13%  13%  [ 11 ]
Sebastian Vettel 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Jarno Trulli 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Timo Glock 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Nico Rosberg 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Nelsinho Piquet 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Kazuki Nakajima 4%  4%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 83
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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1™ Fuji Television Japanese Grand Prix
PostPosted: 14 Oct 2008, 22:30  
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shail69 wrote:
scermat wrote:
i dont think it was deliberate. his option of not hitting lewis was to cut the chicane and erm that would've made him look like a fool after what he said at spa. normal race incident to me. his fault yes, but i wouldnt say its deliberate. if you wanna see deliberate see schumi vs hill in 94 lol.

shail69 wrote:
yeah, he would have pitted for sure, not because of massa's touch but because but because of his tyre and at that points it was unnecessary for him ot be aggressive and overtake massa.


hahahahaha. so you're saying he should've backed off and let massa stay ahead just because of that?

maybe this'll help http://www.google.com/search?client=ope ... 8&oe=utf-8

I dont think the drivers are racing when they dont have a car to race.
The link you gave doesnt relate to your statement. Its not only speed but a little bit of luck and some fans in the brain to keep you cool in some circumstance(which hamilton seem to lack).


so Force India, Red Bull, Honda, Renault should all quit?

anyways your argument can be applied to mine aswell. Massa saw Lewis flat spotting the tyres so he shouldn't have risked it knowing hed be able to pass him easily on the straight. (you may also find a striking resemblance between my comment and what Massa said after SPA). but once again, they're racing, not driving.

a flat spot will hinder you yes, but as long as the car is moving are have a car to race. remember sato with fumes coming out the engine at monaco in 04? or kimi driving around with a badly flat spotted tyre for a good portion of the race in 05 only for it to break suspension off in last lap?


i pretty much fully agree with TA on this. both counts.

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1™ Fuji Television Japanese Grand Prix
PostPosted: 15 Oct 2008, 04:45  
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shail69 wrote:
Zack wrote:
*chk vid thread*

Flat Spot
Image

TBH .. i felt all penalties were unnecessary.

Regarding Massa - bourdais , its hard to get any conclusion about that incident.
>Massa & Bourdais both miscalculated
>Massa Mirrors might be useless considering bourdais position.
>Interestingly Massa was ahead :blink:

rest speculation .. tomorrow .. nah! today 10/15/2008 - 1:38 AM

GN.


yeah, he would have pitted for sure, not because of massa's touch but because but because of his tyre and at that points it was unnecessary for him ot be aggressive and overtake massa.

I agree on this with scermat.He would have pitted but that doesn't mean he should stop racing ... No one does ... ask Fisi :)
---------
About video : You will see what you want to see! :p
Real Kudos to Fia-fom for this video

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1™ Fuji Television Japanese Grand Prix
PostPosted: 15 Oct 2008, 08:43  
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scermat wrote:
shail69 wrote:
scermat wrote:
i dont think it was deliberate. his option of not hitting lewis was to cut the chicane and erm that would've made him look like a fool after what he said at spa. normal race incident to me. his fault yes, but i wouldnt say its deliberate. if you wanna see deliberate see schumi vs hill in 94 lol.

shail69 wrote:
yeah, he would have pitted for sure, not because of massa's touch but because but because of his tyre and at that points it was unnecessary for him ot be aggressive and overtake massa.


hahahahaha. so you're saying he should've backed off and let massa stay ahead just because of that?

maybe this'll help http://www.google.com/search?client=ope ... 8&oe=utf-8

I dont think the drivers are racing when they dont have a car to race.
The link you gave doesnt relate to your statement. Its not only speed but a little bit of luck and some fans in the brain to keep you cool in some circumstance(which hamilton seem to lack).


so Force India, Red Bull, Honda, Renault should all quit?

anyways your argument can be applied to mine aswell. Massa saw Lewis flat spotting the tyres so he shouldn't have risked it knowing hed be able to pass him easily on the straight. (you may also find a striking resemblance between my comment and what Massa said after SPA). but once again, they're racing, not driving.

a flat spot will hinder you yes, but as long as the car is moving are have a car to race. remember sato with fumes coming out the engine at monaco in 04? or kimi driving around with a badly flat spotted tyre for a good portion of the race in 05 only for it to break suspension off in last lap?


i pretty much fully agree with TA on this. both counts.

Well, force india, honda, renault and all should all race, they have a car and then they need to do so.

Well, hamilton was onto the pits so, it would have been better if he had pushed after the pits rather than before.
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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1™ Fuji Television Japanese Grand Prix
PostPosted: 15 Oct 2008, 08:46  
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TwistedArmco wrote:
shail69 wrote:
scermat wrote:
i dont think it was deliberate. his option of not hitting lewis was to cut the chicane and erm that would've made him look like a fool after what he said at spa. normal race incident to me. his fault yes, but i wouldnt say its deliberate. if you wanna see deliberate see schumi vs hill in 94 lol.

shail69 wrote:
yeah, he would have pitted for sure, not because of massa's touch but because but because of his tyre and at that points it was unnecessary for him ot be aggressive and overtake massa.


hahahahaha. so you're saying he should've backed off and let massa stay ahead just because of that?

maybe this'll help http://www.google.com/search?client=ope ... 8&oe=utf-8

I dont think the drivers are racing when they dont have a car to race.
The link you gave doesnt relate to your statement. Its not only speed but a little bit of luck and some fans in the brain to keep you cool in some circumstance(which hamilton seem to lack).


In fairness to Hamilton, Massa's move was stupid, and Hamilton had every right to try and race him, even with damage. Hamilton is a born racer, and had him into the corner. whether Massa tried to genuinely tuck in, or took to the kerbs to get a better contact, no-one but Massa and Ferrari confidants can be sure.
In fairness to Massa, Hamilton was stupid for adding a good 15-20 seconds and 10-12 places to his race by not giving him enough room. Not that Hamilton was obliged to, it's just that the risk of Massa spinning him around was frankly an extra one that he didn't need to add to his already self-compromised race.


Exactly, he didnt needed to do so to a person who has been critisized as a very simple person to overtake because of you. So massa wouldnt let him pass easily.
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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1™ Fuji Television Japanese Grand Prix
PostPosted: 15 Oct 2008, 09:11  
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shail69 wrote:
TwistedArmco wrote:
In fairness to Hamilton, Massa's move was stupid, and Hamilton had every right to try and race him, even with damage. Hamilton is a born racer, and had him into the corner. whether Massa tried to genuinely tuck in, or took to the kerbs to get a better contact, no-one but Massa and Ferrari confidants can be sure.
In fairness to Massa, Hamilton was stupid for adding a good 15-20 seconds and 10-12 places to his race by not giving him enough room. Not that Hamilton was obliged to, it's just that the risk of Massa spinning him around was frankly an extra one that he didn't need to add to his already self-compromised race.


Exactly, he didnt needed to do so to a person who has been critisized as a very simple person to overtake because of you. So massa wouldnt let him pass easily.


But then, as I think scermat mentioned, Massa probably knew about Hamilton's impending stop because of his lock-up, and faced the risk of damaging his own car.

Although it is feasible that Massa didn't know, and just thought "I can't let him finish ahead of me!!" and gave him a heartfelt love-tap. Either way, Massa is not ultimately blameless. In fact he was marginally more the villain of the two Championship contenders at Fuji, stupid as they both were (IMHO).

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1™ Fuji Television Japanese Grand Prix
PostPosted: 15 Oct 2008, 10:39  
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Anyone remember a Penalty for running wide in the first curve?... I don't.
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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1™ Fuji Television Japanese Grand Prix
PostPosted: 15 Oct 2008, 10:42  
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Wow, you guys have eagle eyes! Good job finding this, thanks Zack
Zack wrote:
*chk vid thread*

Flat Spot
Image

TBH .. i felt all penalties were unnecessary.

Regarding Massa - bourdais , its hard to get any conclusion about that incident.
>Massa & Bourdais both miscalculated
>Massa Mirrors might be useless considering bourdais position.
>Interestingly Massa was ahead :blink:

rest speculation .. tomorrow .. nah! today 10/15/2008 - 1:38 AM

GN.
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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1™ Fuji Television Japanese Grand Prix
PostPosted: 15 Oct 2008, 11:41  
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TwistedArmco wrote:
shail69 wrote:
TwistedArmco wrote:
In fairness to Hamilton, Massa's move was stupid, and Hamilton had every right to try and race him, even with damage. Hamilton is a born racer, and had him into the corner. whether Massa tried to genuinely tuck in, or took to the kerbs to get a better contact, no-one but Massa and Ferrari confidants can be sure.
In fairness to Massa, Hamilton was stupid for adding a good 15-20 seconds and 10-12 places to his race by not giving him enough room. Not that Hamilton was obliged to, it's just that the risk of Massa spinning him around was frankly an extra one that he didn't need to add to his already self-compromised race.


Exactly, he didnt needed to do so to a person who has been critisized as a very simple person to overtake because of you. So massa wouldnt let him pass easily.


But then, as I think scermat mentioned, Massa probably knew about Hamilton's impending stop because of his lock-up, and faced the risk of damaging his own car.

Although it is feasible that Massa didn't know, and just thought "I can't let him finish ahead of me!!" and gave him a heartfelt love-tap. Either way, Massa is not ultimately blameless. In fact he was marginally more the villain of the two Championship contenders at Fuji, stupid as they both were (IMHO).


Poisonous SchuMassage Message ..
TwistedArmco From Rating thread wrote:
Ok, the first corner. Hamilton was in my view stupid. It's not as if he couldn't have braked earlier, but once again (like China and Brazil) he lost his head - so he went for a gap which both position and distance-wise, just didn't make sense, and was only going to end in tears.
Then Massa unscrupulously took him off, proving that Schumacher really is teaching him all his old tricks. (Blizzard, you can understand my views, even if you don't agree with them - Jerez, Adelaide) There was no doubt about it, Massa just cut the chicane slightly in order to give Hamilton a substantially better nerf.

:@:2

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1™ Fuji Television Japanese Grand Prix
PostPosted: 15 Oct 2008, 11:43  
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Crash.net wrote:
BREAKING NEWS : In-car footage released of Fuji F1 incidents.

Wednesday, 15th October 2008

Formula One Management has released in-car footage of the contentious incidents involving McLaren-Mercedes' Lewis Hamilton, Ferrari's Felipe Massa and Toro Rosso's Sébastien Bourdais in last weekend's Japanese Grand Prix.

In the wake of the controversial Formula 1 penalties meted out in the Japanese Grand Prix at Fuji Speedway last weekend, in-car footage has been released of the incidents regarding Lewis Hamilton, Felipe Massa and Sébastien Bourdais.

All three drivers received penalties either during or after the race – Hamilton for his dangerously late-braking into the first corner that sent the field scattering wide, Massa for having tipped the McLaren-Mercedes star into a spin just a lap later and Bourdais for his collision with the Brazilian late on in the grand prix.

The Bourdais penalty in particular provoked widespread condemnation, and it subsequently emerged that in that case the race stewards had acted against prior advice from FIA race director Charlie Whiting that the driver exiting the pit-lane has priority.

Now Formula One Management – the company owned by the sport's commercial rights-holder Bernie Ecclestone – has released high-quality replays of each of the incidents, including a number of unseen angles and cockpit views.

Video Link :
Code:
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2008/10/8530.html


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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1™ Fuji Television Japanese Grand Prix
PostPosted: 15 Oct 2008, 12:46  
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Wtf happened to Hamilton in the first lap? :blink: :oh: :sad:
   
 
 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1™ Fuji Television Japanese Grand Prix
PostPosted: 15 Oct 2008, 13:11  
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Zack wrote:
Poisonous SchuMassage Message ..
TwistedArmco From Rating thread wrote:
Ok, the first corner. Hamilton was in my view stupid. It's not as if he couldn't have braked earlier, but once again (like China and Brazil) he lost his head - so he went for a gap which both position and distance-wise, just didn't make sense, and was only going to end in tears.
Then Massa unscrupulously took him off, proving that Schumacher really is teaching him all his old tricks. (Blizzard, you can understand my views, even if you don't agree with them - Jerez, Adelaide) There was no doubt about it, Massa just cut the chicane slightly in order to give Hamilton a substantially better nerf.

:@:2


:) No one seemed to pick up on it. Perhaps I should have said Massa was Schumacher-esque instead.

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1™ Fuji Television Japanese Grand Prix
PostPosted: 15 Oct 2008, 13:49  
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Hehe Armco, good joke mate :)

Yeah he did copy Adelaide and Jerez, but he did it better than Michael, who went out himself both times. Felipe knocked Hamilton out and continued himself :)

No let´s be serious, Adelaide was the worst move in F1 history in my oppinion and Jerez is also in the top 5 "Worst moves ever", what Felipe did was deliberate and unfair.
Saying that, everybody said he was too soft, especially after Hockenheim. Now he tried to be the cowboy, well I would appreciate it, if he wouldn´t do it in the future, but that´s F1 and I´m 100% convinced, that Hamilton´s move at the start was deliberate as well, he wanted to prevent Kimi from overtaking him at all cost and pushed him wide, without actually hitting him.

But that´s the way F1 works, in my humble oppinion both penalties were correct, Massa´s was obvious and should have been a stop and go, if he would have been leading the championship a black flag could have also been discussed. He was lucky with the drive through.

Hamilton´s pen was also correct, because he caused chaos at the start and his braking manouvre was unneccesary from a neutral point of view. As a result of his braking many people were forced off the road and maybe even Coulthard´s accident was a result of that chaos.

I hope this is clear now, I´m not pro Massa or contra Hamilton, just neutral.
Watching the race, I immediately said after Massa pushed Hamilton off the road: " I hope he gets punished"

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1™ Fuji Television Japanese Grand Prix
PostPosted: 15 Oct 2008, 18:27  
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The situation of Massa's move against Hamilton is clear and I think it was the reason why Bourdais was also penalised in the end. It was the same situation somehow.

But I'm still thinking about the start situation. Of course it was a dangerous move by Hamilton and the chaos could have been avoidable. But then I'm thinking what would have happened if something like this appeared at the back of the field (maybe Button brakes late and avoids crashing into Fisichella for example). Do you think Button would have been penalised then ? I can hardly imagine that.

This puts me not on the side of Hamilton. I'm as neutral as blizzard about this situation and I think Hamilton was penalised enough with falling back to the end of the field

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1™ Fuji Television Japanese Grand Prix
PostPosted: 15 Oct 2008, 23:08  
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Intermediate07 wrote:
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Wtf happened to Hamilton in the first lap? :blink: :oh: :sad:

He was fighting with Heikki and went off track in the same way as kimi had to go when he was fighting with kubica with few laps to go.
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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1™ Fuji Television Japanese Grand Prix
PostPosted: 16 Oct 2008, 08:38  
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blizzard wrote:
Hehe Armco, good joke mate :)

Yeah he did copy Adelaide and Jerez, but he did it better than Michael, who went out himself both times. Felipe knocked Hamilton out and continued himself :)

No let´s be serious, Adelaide was the worst move in F1 history in my oppinion and Jerez is also in the top 5 "Worst moves ever", what Felipe did was deliberate and unfair.
Saying that, everybody said he was too soft, especially after Hockenheim. Now he tried to be the cowboy, well I would appreciate it, if he wouldn´t do it in the future, but that´s F1 and I´m 100% convinced, that Hamilton´s move at the start was deliberate as well, he wanted to prevent Kimi from overtaking him at all cost and pushed him wide, without actually hitting him.

But that´s the way F1 works, in my humble oppinion both penalties were correct, Massa´s was obvious and should have been a stop and go, if he would have been leading the championship a black flag could have also been discussed. He was lucky with the drive through.

Hamilton´s pen was also correct, because he caused chaos at the start and his braking manouvre was unneccesary from a neutral point of view. As a result of his braking many people were forced off the road and maybe even Coulthard´s accident was a result of that chaos.

I hope this is clear now, I´m not pro Massa or contra Hamilton, just neutral.
Watching the race, I immediately said after Massa pushed Hamilton off the road: " I hope he gets punished"


Yeah, I'm not trying to pick on your Schumi support. :) I sure respected Schumi.

But yeah, reminiscent is the word. I also think the Hamilto penalty was correct. He did cause Raikkonen to lose 7 places, and he only lost two, but than lost 4 or so more from a mistake in the second/third corner. I don't think Hamilton's was deliberate as such, but it was hot-headed. He seemed to think "I'll brake later than everyone else, and repass Kimi!!". Unfortunately or him, he braked at least 20 metres too late, and completely cocked up the start.

Arrows_F1 wrote:
But I'm still thinking about the start situation. Of course it was a dangerous move by Hamilton and the chaos could have been avoidable. But then I'm thinking what would have happened if something like this appeared at the back of the field (maybe Button brakes late and avoids crashing into Fisichella for example). Do you think Button would have been penalised then ? I can hardly imagine that.


Well, think back to Turkey and what you described did happen. Fisi missed his braking point by about as much as Hamilton, hit Nakajima really hard and flew over him = no penalty. A grid penalty could have been given, but it wasn't. So, I dunno. I think Nick Heidfeld is right in wanting a permanent steward.

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