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Who will win the 2008 FORMULA 1 Belgian Grand Prix ?
Poll ended at 07 Sep 2008, 15:34
Lewis Hamilton 25%  25%  [ 22 ]
Felipe Massa 33%  33%  [ 29 ]
Kimi Räikkönen 31%  31%  [ 27 ]
Robert Kubica 6%  6%  [ 5 ]
Heikki Kovalainen 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Nick Heidfeld 2%  2%  [ 2 ]
Jarno Trulli 1%  1%  [ 1 ]
Fernando Alonso 1%  1%  [ 1 ]
Mark Webber 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Timo Glock 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Total votes : 87
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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 Belgian Grand Prix
PostPosted: 10 Sep 2008, 22:02  
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shail69 wrote:
f1.com race highlights are usually good.


ya the video was very good, the most thing that i liked it was at the end when lewis was celebrating and then the music stops and he had go inside for the race investigators :)

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 Belgian Grand Prix
PostPosted: 10 Sep 2008, 22:09  
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mclaren have now lodged an appeal against the stewards’ decision
go to this url http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2008/9/8348.html

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 Belgian Grand Prix
PostPosted: 11 Sep 2008, 11:11  
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Hamilton clearly cheated. he let raikonnen pass but only for a split second before immediately repassing him without fully giving pack the position. which is why he was correctly penalised. but of course mclaren cheating is nothing new, whether it's on track in belgium or off track by stealing ferrari's info. they are also complete hypocrites. they say they don't want to see the championship decided by off track penalties/politics but they were glad to attempt to win last year's championship in court because the fuel in the bmw and williams was a degree off the the correct temperature.
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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 Belgian Grand Prix
PostPosted: 11 Sep 2008, 13:29  
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alonso5 wrote:
Hamilton clearly cheated. he let raikonnen pass but only for a split second before immediately repassing him without fully giving pack the position.


well, he gave back a full car length and had lesser speed by 7km/h. question now is, what is the definition of giving back the position? you have to give back 2 car lengths? 3? 1.5? 5? never pass the dude again? what?
correct answer: depends on whom you are overtaking ;)

but of course ferrari and FIA-T cheating is nothing new, whether it's on track in monaco 2006 or Jerez 1997 or off track by stealing mclaren's info, or by penalizing michelin tyres in 2003, etc.. they are also complete hypocrites. they say they don't want(*) to see the championship decided by off track penalties/politics but they were glad to attempt to win the 1999 championship in court even if their barge boards in Malaysia were illegal.

(*) this is false btw
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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 Belgian Grand Prix
PostPosted: 11 Sep 2008, 13:46  
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alonso5 wrote:
Hamilton clearly cheated. he let raikonnen pass but only for a split second before immediately repassing him without fully giving pack the position. which is why he was correctly penalised. but of course mclaren cheating is nothing new, whether it's on track in belgium or off track by stealing ferrari's info. they are also complete hypocrites. they say they don't want to see the championship decided by off track penalties/politics but they were glad to attempt to win last year's championship in court because the fuel in the bmw and williams was a degree off the the correct temperature.


Your hatred towards Mclaren & Lewis is for a different reason. Try to rationalize the same by replacing Lewis / Mclaren with Alonso / Renault. If Alonso makes this kind of a move and he is penalized what would you say ? Would you say Alonso cheated ? No way, when it comes to Alonso there is nothing he can do wrong ! He becomes your god. Open your eyes and see the facts.

Ferrari is clearly proving a point. They cannot fight for championship on-track so they go knocking at the doors of their Big Brother - Max Mosley who uses his Mercenaries (FIA) to bombard Mclaren with all sorts of penalties.

Attempt to win championship in court ? Wait a second who started this ? Jean Todt - " We are fine winning the title at the FIA's court of International appeal " after Italy 2007 ! Now does it make sense as to who started this ?

What happened to Raikkonen's overtaking of Hamilton under yellow flags when Nico's Williams came barging in ? Where did that go ? All that matters to you people is Mclaren getting penalized while your baby boy - Ferrari is to be protected !
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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 Belgian Grand Prix
PostPosted: 11 Sep 2008, 13:50  
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scermat wrote:
cause clearly, saying something ludicrous as "Hamilton kept his momentum to give him an advantage" means you're disagreeing with his laws of motion. and i have a hunch he wont like that (plus he'll give you tons of mathematical proofs on why he's right and you're not)

he must've been doing somersaults in his grave these past couple of days.


Fantastic. Sir Isaac Newton would be wondering what kind of fools sit on the racing parks as stewards !
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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 Belgian Grand Prix
PostPosted: 11 Sep 2008, 14:55  
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Alonso: Hamilton penalty was deserved

Alonso said he fully supported the FIA stewards' decision to hit Hamilton with a 25-second penalty, which handed victory to Felipe Massa, because he felt there was no doubt he gained an advantage.

"Yes, I totally agree," he said of the stewards' decision. "Lewis had an advantage by doing that. If he did the chicane properly, he would never have crossed the line one metre behind Kimi. You lose five or ten metres and then you cannot overtake in Turn 1.

"We always said we would give back the position, but at the same time as giving back the position you cannot take advantage of what you did one corner before. If you give back the position, take the slipstream and overtake the guy into the next corner you still have an advantage because of what you did.

"These escape roads are just for safety. You need to imagine that before there would have been a wall, and if there is a wall you cannot use that part of the track."

The Spaniard added that his former teammate should have hung back and taken the chance to overtake Raikkonen later in the race.

"There were two or three laps to the end, many more corners to overtake at with the condition of the circuit. It was clear for me that it was not the right moment to overtake. The stewards take their decisions and they have been very strict this year. They are very hard but consistent."

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 Belgian Grand Prix
PostPosted: 11 Sep 2008, 14:56  
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OTHER DRIVERS OPINION ON LEWIS CUT

What happened is that he took an advantage by cutting the chicane," said Ferrari's Felipe Massa, who inherited the win after Hamilton was given a 25-second penalty after the race.

"You can ask drivers how many overtaking moves you see there.

"None between the last corner and the first corner, because there is such a small straight there. That is my opinion and it doesn't change."

Toro Rosso's Sebastien Bourdais said rules were rules.

"I think it is very clear, the rules are clear," he said. "Maybe the penalty is very hard but he has made the same mistake twice, he did in Magny-Cours and he did it in Spa.

"I don't really understand why there is such a mess around it, there is a rule book and everyone has to obey the same thing. The penalty is rough but it is up to you to give the position back."

Williams driver Nico Rosberg added: "He did have an advantage because he would not so close if he had not cut the chicane but the penalty was a bit harsh as it did not have a big result in the end result. But it won't stop us from trying to attack definitely."

Toyota's Jarno Trulli agreed that the penalty may have been too harsh.

"I agree the penalty was quite big but I am not a steward. But it is also clear he got an advantage," he said.

"The rules are very clear, if you cut the chicane you get the advantage you have to drop it and lose advantage, in Lewis' case he should not attack in the first corner that is it.

"This last chicane, they have a lot of run off area they give you more chance to attack because in case of mistake you won't end up in wall or gravel. We have more chance to overtake."

Giancarlo Fisichella added: "I just seen pictures so difficult for me to say if it is right or not what happened. For sure maybe he took a small advantage that is why he had the possibility to overtake him again in braking for Turn One"
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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 Belgian Grand Prix
PostPosted: 11 Sep 2008, 14:59  
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as fernando so many other driver think that the cut brought Lewis an advantage.....from then we can discuss or not if 25 sec are right or not...but rules are rules....they state that for curve cut you have a drive through.....in this case as after race....the race control applied 25 sec....
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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 Belgian Grand Prix
PostPosted: 11 Sep 2008, 16:31  
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Who are the drivers u supported Hamilton,i think there are only few 1 or 2.Hamilton is good driver but he has to read the rule book before every race :p

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 Belgian Grand Prix
PostPosted: 11 Sep 2008, 17:30  
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Yeah, I think after these comments of the other drivers you Hamilton lovers should just * Please try to avoid insults even when just abbreviated * -az



Quote:
Q: (Dan Knutson - National Speed Sport News) Could I ask the other four drivers what they thought about that incident and Kimi, and as a follow-up, do you think you and other drivers might be afraid to fight for a position now that you might get a penalty?
GF: I have just seen pictures, so it is difficult for me to say whether what happened was right or not. For sure, maybe, he took a small advantage, that's why he had the possibility, as Felipe said, to overtake him again in braking for turn one. But obviously, a 25s penalty was quite a strong penalty. As for the second question: when we get in the car and we're fighting to overtake a car, we don't think about that. We just try to do our best. Obviously we know if we cut a chicane or we take an advantage we need to back off and give the position back.
SB: Yes, I think the rules are very clear. Maybe the penalty was a bit hard, but I think he's made the same mistake twice: he's done it in Magny-Cours and he's done it again in Spa. I don't really understand why there's been such a mess around it. There's a rule book and everybody has to obey the same thing. The penalty is really rough but in the end it's up to you to give the position back or not. Pretty straightforward.
NR: Yeah, I definitely agree, because he did get an advantage, because he wouldn't have been that close behind Kimi had he not cut the chicane. But then again, I also think the penalty was a bit harsh as that did not have such a big effect on the actual race result in the end.
JT: Well, I agree completely with my colleagues. The penalty was quite big but I'm not a steward and I cannot decide what kind of penalty should be given. But on the other hand, it was very clear that he got an advantage out of it, so that's where it is. The rules are very clear. If you cut the chicane and you get an advantage, you just have to drop back and give back the position and in Lewis's case he shouldn't have attacked straight away at the next corner; that was it. On the other hand, with this new chicane, there is a lot of run-off, it gives you more chance to attack because in the case of a mistake, you wouldn't end up in a wall or in the gravel. If it was the case of Lewis in Spa, he wouldn't have gone much further than that. We have more chances to overtake.
SB: I think it was very clear and I agree as well. You have to be responsible for what you decide to do, and in this particular case, if you do gain an advantage like I said, you just give it back and make sure that you don't expose yourself to penalties. I think it's the easiest way to handle it. In my previous experience, my previous life in the States, it was actually a common thing. The stewards would not take action if you gave the position back, so I think it's only fair.
NR: I agree and I don't think it's going to stop us from trying to attack, definitely.
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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 Belgian Grand Prix
PostPosted: 11 Sep 2008, 18:37  
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just my 5 cents to contribute for the posts record (perhaps?)

-Very nice GP.

- Don't think the punishment was fair. As some member wrote (sorry not to know your nick now, but after so many pages..) even if LH gained an advantage, the pilot who was penalized with that move, didn't even finished the race. As for that, the penalty brought no benefit to Kimmy. Having said that, a 10 grid penalty was much more appropiate. Just my thoughts.

- Don't think Felipe's got the consistency of a champion, although he's good.

- Don't think Kova, even with all the bad luck, is doing a good job. I keep remembering his words on LH last year, saying that Lewis is a good driver but that excitment around him was because he was driving a Mclr? Kova's got one now and i don't see him as fast. Maybe it's really bad luck.

- Sorry for Bourdais. Really! :(

- Nice for Heidfeld. He really needed to show some improvement after so many times behind kubica.

- Piquet may be good, but no champ material too.

- Kubica and Raiko 1st and 2nd next gp would flame up the WDC.

Note: just an F1 fan, no drivers or teams.
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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 Belgian Grand Prix
PostPosted: 12 Sep 2008, 10:06  
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IraNik wrote:
alonso5 wrote:
Hamilton clearly cheated. he let raikonnen pass but only for a split second before immediately repassing him without fully giving pack the position.


well, he gave back a full car length and had lesser speed by 7km/h. question now is, what is the definition of giving back the position? you have to give back 2 car lengths? 3? 1.5? 5? never pass the dude again? what?
correct answer: depends on whom you are overtaking ;)

but of course ferrari and FIA-T cheating is nothing new, whether it's on track in monaco 2006 or Jerez 1997 or off track by stealing mclaren's info, or by penalizing michelin tyres in 2003, etc.. they are also complete hypocrites. they say they don't want(*) to see the championship decided by off track penalties/politics but they were glad to attempt to win the 1999 championship in court even if their barge boards in Malaysia were illegal.

(*) this is false btw



yes. but ferrari were penalized on both occasions for their misbehaviour, and they didn't go to the court of appeal like mclaren
correct answer: not at the next corner which is preceded by a short straight which is too short to produce overtaking moves under regular conditions
the definition of giving back the position? restoring the advantage the lead car had before reattempting to overtake.
do you think lewis did that? and please don't say they were wheel to wheel at the entrance to chicane because if there was a wall instead of a run off area lewis would have been in it
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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 Belgian Grand Prix
PostPosted: 12 Sep 2008, 15:02  
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I am thankfully and finally locking this topic which has caused so much strife, given that the Monza weekend has kicked off, and I (nor any other mod/neutral) wants to hear anything about Belgium..

In the words of Edd Straw, autosport journo:

Quote:
"It's a classic example of F1 shooting itself in the foot, that a fantastic double-header of two of the most atmospheric, high-speed and historic tracks in Europe was overshadowed by the whole Spa penalty mess.

Whatever the result of the appeal, everyone loses. Again."


My final-word balanced view of the Grand Prix:

Good points:

1. We will still be talking about this in 20 years' time.
2. It had action, excitement and incident.
3. It brought us all together, here on this forum.



Bad points:

1. We will still be bugging each other about this in 20 years' time.
2. It had excitment, leading to controversy.
3. It tore us all apart, here on this forum.

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