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Who will win the 2008 FORMULA 1 Belgian Grand Prix ?
Poll ended at 07 Sep 2008, 15:34
Lewis Hamilton 25%  25%  [ 22 ]
Felipe Massa 33%  33%  [ 29 ]
Kimi Räikkönen 31%  31%  [ 27 ]
Robert Kubica 6%  6%  [ 5 ]
Heikki Kovalainen 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Nick Heidfeld 2%  2%  [ 2 ]
Jarno Trulli 1%  1%  [ 1 ]
Fernando Alonso 1%  1%  [ 1 ]
Mark Webber 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Timo Glock 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Total votes : 87
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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 Belgian Grand Prix
PostPosted: 08 Sep 2008, 14:43  
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scermat wrote:
Edit: Double post. sorry


You can discuss the drive-through/25 seconds between you all you want, but I'm fed up with the whole thing.

So I'll pick up on another point, which was your point that Piquet and nakajima are rubbish. They are not rubbish. They're not as good as Lewis, but they did both prove their talent before F1, and confidence is a big thing in F1.

If you haven't got the confidence running high, (confidence is going to be low at the start of a season in a c**p car, the 7th worst car in fact for Piquet) things become a downward spiral until you either get a good result or break down completely. France was ok for Piquet, and you could see that even in the wet, he was a new man at Silverstone, on for a top-5 before he spun off. Germany, though flukey, therefore produced Hungary.

My argument is that if you, like Lewis Hamilton, have a top car all winter, continually set great top times in testing, when your team-mate hasn't driven the car yet, and hasn't gelled with the team yet, and you have, and you get in the groove immediately as the season starts, then confidence runs high, and results follow.

I'm not saying tht's the reason why Hamilton is better than Piquet. He is just better. But the comparison isn't fair between one in a Renault R28, and one in a Mac MP4/23. Ok, granted, Piquet isn't exactly transcending his car like Alonso is, but Alonso is Double WDC material, and Piquet had a hard knocks opening to his F1 career, where Hamilton didn't, and that makes a massive difference.

Nakajima.. Ok, he is very raw indeed. But when things are right, he has the pace, and it's not as if Rosberg is completely pwning him. He got into F1 through talent.

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 Belgian Grand Prix
PostPosted: 08 Sep 2008, 14:45  
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so!? my point was these are very well respected people who know what they're saying and ironically not even the usual ferrari apologists seem to agree with the FIA this time round!

good. we found something we agree on. "if you reach there in front you cannot expect the other driver to leave the way just because you are few cm ahead. kimi had the line." fair enough. its racing. Lewis did that to others himself. (massa @Sepang in 2007 comes to mind). that's exactly why lewis cut the chichane. to avoid a collision. now, how can kimi overtake Lewis if Lewis took a shortcut, and carried more speed? he just didn't. he let kimi pass then took him under braking. if he took him on the line while they were both accelerating i'd agree with him using an advantage. but he didn't. he took him under breaking for la source.

anyway i give up. i just cannot see how newtons laws anywhere allow for one car to get ahead of another car that is moving faster

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 Belgian Grand Prix
PostPosted: 08 Sep 2008, 14:47  
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To who think that the penalty to hamilton is wrong...Please go to SEE back in SUZUKA 2005 ALONSO - KLIEN...Please see all the sequence of 5 lap...you will see same stuff between lewis and kimi yesterday.... with Alonso even after few laps has to give position back to klien...alonso gave position to klien twice
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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 Belgian Grand Prix
PostPosted: 08 Sep 2008, 15:00  
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TwistedArmco wrote:
scermat wrote:
Edit: Double post. sorry


You can discuss the drive-through/25 seconds between you all you want, but I'm fed up with the whole thing.

So I'll pick up on another point, which was your point that Piquet and nakajima are rubbish. They are not rubbish. They're not as good as Lewis, but they did both prove their talent before F1, and confidence is a big thing in F1.

If you haven't got the confidence running high, (confidence is going to be low at the start of a season in a c**p car, the 7th worst car in fact for Piquet) things become a downward spiral until you either get a good result or break down completely. France was ok for Piquet, and you could see that even in the wet, he was a new man at Silverstone, on for a top-5 before he spun off. Germany, though flukey, therefore produced Hungary.

My argument is that if you, like Lewis Hamilton, have a top car all winter, continually set great top times in testing, when your team-mate hasn't driven the car yet, and hasn't gelled with the team yet, and you have, and you get in the groove immediately as the season starts, then confidence runs high, and results follow.

I'm not saying tht's the reason why Hamilton is better than Piquet. He is just better. But the comparison isn't fair between one in a Renault R28, and one in a Mac MP4/23. Ok, granted, Piquet isn't exactly transcending his car like Alonso is, but Alonso is Double WDC material, and Piquet had a hard knocks opening to his F1 career, where Hamilton didn't, and that makes a massive difference.

Nakajima.. Ok, he is very raw indeed. But when things are right, he has the pace, and it's not as if Rosberg is completely pwning him. He got into F1 through talent.


well, we pretty much agree then. please try to understand what i was trying to reply to!

Lewis produced the results and measured up to Alonso. Piquet didn't. i have definitely been harsh with Piquet but i was trying to bring my point across. we pretty much share the opinion about driver confidence. but Lewis was capable enoguh of having the confidence to go there and measure up to Alonso. Piquet is still building that up. to me it makes no sense that you have to be in a bad car if you're a rookie. Lewis was good enough to not have to go beg a low end team for a drive before making it up to McLaren. Coming to think of it, neither did Piquet. my whole point (and i went to the extremes to try to bring it out i agree) was that while Lewis brought the results home Piquet and Nakajima didn't (when compared to their team mates). which to me, at least, means that Lewis wasn't at the wrong place.

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 Belgian Grand Prix
PostPosted: 08 Sep 2008, 15:02  
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teahouse wrote:
To who think that the penalty to hamilton is wrong...Please go to SEE back in SUZUKA 2005 ALONSO - KLIEN...Please see all the sequence of 5 lap...you will see same stuff between lewis and kimi yesterday.... with Alonso even after few laps has to give position back to klien...alonso gave position to klien twice


correct my friend, thx a lot !!!

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 Belgian Grand Prix
PostPosted: 08 Sep 2008, 15:06  
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teahouse wrote:
To who think that the penalty to hamilton is wrong...Please go to SEE back in SUZUKA 2005 ALONSO - KLIEN...Please see all the sequence of 5 lap...you will see same stuff between lewis and kimi yesterday.... with Alonso even after few laps has to give position back to klien...alonso gave position to klien twice


A. 2 Wrongs don't make 1 right.
B. Go See Fuji 2007
C. Go See Hungary 2006
D. Go See any Canadian Gp! lol

Oh and as to Alonso's incident he took him on straight, as opposed to under braking. plus he cut the chichane cause he outbreaked himself. still stupid decision by FIA. as everyone agreed on back then. so what am i getting at? if you're going to find differences between say Hungary 2006 and yesterday i can find differences between Suzuka 2005 and yesterday too.

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 Belgian Grand Prix
PostPosted: 08 Sep 2008, 15:38  
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shail69 wrote:
he did get an advantage by cutting the chicane. do you think that he would have been able to maintain the gap by not cutting the chicane. he could challenge kimi because he cut the chicane, he would not have been able to challenge kimi of he did not cut the chicane because he would have to brake hard and that would lose him time.
A penalty was deserved and if it would have been a race penalty, it would be ten seconds stop and go and that is even more than 25 seconds.

He had no choice but to cut the chicane as he was ran out of road (legally or illegally you can decide). How many times does that need to be said?
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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 Belgian Grand Prix
PostPosted: 08 Sep 2008, 15:48  
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Triple world champion Niki Lauda has described the stewards' decision as "the worst judgement in F1 history".

"It is the most perverted judgment I have ever seen, It's absolutely unacceptable when three functionaries (the stewards) influence the championship like this."

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 Belgian Grand Prix
PostPosted: 08 Sep 2008, 15:51  
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point is: why do people fans believe that FIA is against Hamilton...last year just made evident exactly the opposite, in many occasion Lewis was over the edge and the penalty never arrive. Not even when he was put back on track by a tractor...
First penalty that lewis got was this year at the Baharein GP. When clearly the 2 Mclaren for saving petrol where in the middle of the track doing 20 mph, (schumi ferrari and so many others have been penalized for same stuff) so i don't think it was anti- Lewis...
Second penalty he is got was after the crash in Canada...Now to have the penalty there he has crashed virtually against 2 other car (because also Kubica was dodged for mm) at the exit of pit lane with red light and under safety car....Penalty was 10 place only ..,ruin other people cost him 10 place on next race only....This is to compare with what people have said about Massa in Valencia...(where there was no safety car...no red light at the exit of the pit...no gainging from a real competitors....but just a lapped Force india...and if penalty should have been issue eventually should have gone to the team for early release)......Then we have yesterday......well rules are rules and they say that you cannot cut a chigane and gain an advantage position not only in terms of time, but also in terms of position on track, speed, and relationship with your competitors. I believe that Lewis yesterday gain advantage in TRACK POSITION, RELATIONSHIP TO YOUR COMPETITOR (they were side to side) and TIME (if he would have done the chigane at the speed he would have lost 1 sec sure).....
SO PENALTY IS FAIR AND SQUARE.....
Reality is the when he is in fight mode he disconnect himself and thinks that he can do what he does want........

THE correctness of Kimi and Ferrari in fact is all here.........what if kimi under pressure would have done an accident with lewis going both retired (and it could have happen at least 3 time in that lap)......and Massa would have won.......

EVERYBODY HERE would have said.....hey Ferrari is playing the hard game with kimi because MASSA can gain and win (he would have been in front of lewis by 4 points).

as said PENALTY is FAIR.....there is no conspiracy
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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 Belgian Grand Prix
PostPosted: 08 Sep 2008, 15:57  
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To phil, if the championship is won by a few points, maybe, but it might not be.

And to everyone else...

Hamilton cut the chicane, he gave about a tenth back to Kimi to overtake him meters after! If he didn't cut the chicane, he would have had to let Kimi go, wait, then go which would have been around 1-2 second gap, he gave 1 tenth! It was a stupid attempt at an overtake, he wasn't going to make it! I said at the time "He (Lewis) could get a drive through for that, remember france?" I say it was fair, maybe not 25 seconds, maybe less, maybe more, I don't know, I don't know the exact rules (great if somebody can post them) don't know what the stewards knew that we didn't or something.

Simple answer - Don't cut corners! :-)

And Lewis should keep his mouth shut - Nobody overtakes me around the outside. lol. It makes him look worse (if that's possible!)

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 Belgian Grand Prix
PostPosted: 08 Sep 2008, 16:31  
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phil1993 wrote:
Triple world champion Niki Lauda has described the stewards' decision as "the worst judgement in F1 history".

"It is the most perverted judgment I have ever seen, It's absolutely unacceptable when three functionaries (the stewards) influence the championship like this."


Niki Lauda is clearly an IDIOT!

he didn't see Lewis was 57412 light years BEHINDDD RAIKKO DA MAN and he only gave 0.000000000000000000000001 back! OMG!



yes. this is exaggeration. see where you're going all wrong with this? if he gave a tenth back and it was enough for kimi to get ahead he wasn't 1-2s behind in the first place! (in fact they were side by side which technically is no gap at all).

Unless kimi has a super boost button of course. which is technically illegal. but i see were you're going. it was obvious kimi was caught on the backfoot so any overtaking move on him should have been illegal. lewis should have given kimi 30 second advantage. oh well. he still crashed :@:2

here's the EXACT rule that Lewis was penalised for breaking.

30.3 a) During practice and the race, drivers may use only the track and must at all times observe the provisions of the Code relating to driving behaviour on circuits.

which pretty much everyone broke anyway.

thanks FIA apologists btw for making me dislike kimi. i used to support that guy once.

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 Belgian Grand Prix
PostPosted: 08 Sep 2008, 16:39  
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ok let's put back gravel trap on the side of the chigane.......and let's see who will still cut them.....I bet nobody.....in same situation he would have break......go on stand still speed up again and kimi was at least 2 sec ahead
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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 Belgian Grand Prix
PostPosted: 08 Sep 2008, 16:46  
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kimi and mika wrote:
To phil, if the championship is won by a few points, maybe, but it might not be.

And to everyone else...

Hamilton cut the chicane, he gave about a tenth back to Kimi to overtake him meters after! If he didn't cut the chicane, he would have had to let Kimi go, wait, then go which would have been around 1-2 second gap, he gave 1 tenth! It was a stupid attempt at an overtake, he wasn't going to make it! I said at the time "He (Lewis) could get a drive through for that, remember france?" I say it was fair, maybe not 25 seconds, maybe less, maybe more, I don't know, I don't know the exact rules (great if somebody can post them) don't know what the stewards knew that we didn't or something.

Simple answer - Don't cut corners! :-)

And Lewis should keep his mouth shut - Nobody overtakes me around the outside. lol. It makes him look worse (if that's possible!)


everyone is still missing my point!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Kimi retired!!!! If Kimi finished P2, then fair enough, but he didn't. He hit the wall!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! sigh. but i saw a paper today that sums it up perfectly. 'Massa starts 2nd, gets bumped to 3rd. drives round. overtakes no-one. finishes 2nd. wins' I know its a British paper, but even though, summed up 100% correct.

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 Belgian Grand Prix
PostPosted: 08 Sep 2008, 16:49  
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phil1993 wrote:
kimi and mika wrote:
To phil, if the championship is won by a few points, maybe, but it might not be.

And to everyone else...

Hamilton cut the chicane, he gave about a tenth back to Kimi to overtake him meters after! If he didn't cut the chicane, he would have had to let Kimi go, wait, then go which would have been around 1-2 second gap, he gave 1 tenth! It was a stupid attempt at an overtake, he wasn't going to make it! I said at the time "He (Lewis) could get a drive through for that, remember france?" I say it was fair, maybe not 25 seconds, maybe less, maybe more, I don't know, I don't know the exact rules (great if somebody can post them) don't know what the stewards knew that we didn't or something.

Simple answer - Don't cut corners! :-)

And Lewis should keep his mouth shut - Nobody overtakes me around the outside. lol. It makes him look worse (if that's possible!)


everyone is still missing my point!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Kimi retired!!!! If Kimi finished P2, then fair enough, but he didn't. He hit the wall!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! sigh. but i saw a paper today that sums it up perfectly. 'Massa starts 2nd, gets bumped to 3rd. drives round. overtakes no-one. finishes 2nd. wins' I know its a British paper, but even though, summed up 100% correct.



BUT RULES ARE RULES NO MATTER IF KIMI RETIRES OR NOT
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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 Belgian Grand Prix
PostPosted: 08 Sep 2008, 16:54  
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teahouse wrote:
ok let's put back gravel trap on the side of the chigane.......and let's see who will still cut them.....I bet nobody.....in same situation he would have break......go on stand still speed up again and kimi was at least 2 sec ahead


so first 1s then 1-2 now 2. this is going right where i said it was :cool: (fun fact: the gap prior to rain starting was at 1.6 seconds)

yep. put gravel back on. see we do agree on something!

but hey if there was anyone who abused tarmac run off it was God Kimi. at least i dont think any SPA layout redevelopment projects started yesterday afternoon.

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