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Who will win the 2008 FORMULA 1 European Grand Prix ?
Poll ended at 24 Aug 2008, 16:50
Lewis Hamilton 28%  28%  [ 21 ]
Kimi Räikkönen 38%  38%  [ 29 ]
Felipe Massa 24%  24%  [ 18 ]
Robert Kubica 5%  5%  [ 4 ]
Nick Heidfeld 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Heikki Kovalainen 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Jarno Trulli 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Fernando Alonso 4%  4%  [ 3 ]
Mark Webber 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Timo Glock 1%  1%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 76
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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 European Grand Prix
PostPosted: 24 Aug 2008, 17:51  
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TwistedArmco wrote:
scermat wrote:
there's your consistency! so valencia was a track where you'd get penalised only if you get a sporting advantage.

i'm remembering so many incidents that got penalised where no sporting advantage was gained right now dating back to ages ago! like when montoya got DQ for having his pit crew leave his car a few seconds too late. cant see what possible sporting advantage that might have given him. or even this year when lewis oversteered on lap 1 over the chichane after overtaking bourdais.


Yes but before this season, there are many precedents as to what happens if you do that. Like Alonso last year (although I bet you wish he was penalized) wasn't penalized time or a stop-go for narrowly missing Honda mechanics at the Nurburgring. He was fined instead.
With pit crew on the grid, it's black and white, there are clear rules, with Pitlane, as long as nothign happened it is a) more situationally variable b) considered more minor if nothing actually resulted. If Hamilton's pitcrew (I stress pitcrew, because it is SO NOT the driver's responsibility) let him out like so in future, I would expect no penalty either, because a reprimand and a fine is penalty enough given the fact that no one was harmed/no dangerous situation occured.

That is my take on it anyway..

EDIT: I kind of missed your fundamental point, which is that more consistency and more rigid rules (as to when and how a penalty can be decided on/debated about) need to be imposed. The same group of stewards at every GP, with the same standards/ethics/neutrality which I believe you or someone else mentioned earlier, would be the way to go.


yes what i meant to argue about was the consistency. Massa definitely DID NOT deserve that penalty. as i said i think the fine was the correct way to go. it was definitely not the drivers fault. even though we have seen drivers get penalised for mistakes the team made.

i only disagree on one thing. that if it didnt cause a dangerous situation it shouldnt be penalised on the track. rules are there to be followed. maybe today nothing dangerous occured but who knows what next GP might bring? altough technically i guess you can argue that the rules were followed here as they were reprimanded. but why not be consistent in what you hand out as penalties/fines? i mean this is a general issue not about this incident. its like stewards are too harsh or too soft. Chandook got penalised for "unsafe release from pitlane" in the GP2 race at Valencia - by the same stewards! remember ralf at the 2005 Imola GP? 25 second penalty after the race for being released unsafely from his second pitstop. this is what my problem is. lack of consistency.

you seem to be a fan of alonso (who no, i didnt want to get penalised as i quite like him as a racer - plus he used to drive for McLaren last year :p , and even if i dont like a team/driver i try to be fair)... i presume you remember Monza 2006 qualifying. i wouldn't call what happened then consistent. or the penalty Kova and Rosberg or Kazu got in France. other drivers did it before and they didnt even get investigated! or how about in 2003 when Schumi was pushed at the nurburgring (as hamilton last year) but Alonso at Monza VERY similar incident didnt get pushed? how about hamiltons penalty in france? race before in Canada vettel cut a chiacane as he oversteered and didnt get penalised (and rightly so) but why penalise one and not the other? of course... you can always find small differences in the cases but that's nitpicking. rules were broken and VERY different penalties (if at all) were handed out.

i can mention a multitude more of incidents involving many drivers where consistency wasnt met by the FIA. hell... the 100m fine mclaren got was the biggest piece of inconsistency ever considering Spyker did the same thing just 2 months earlier and actually used RedBull's classified documents as evidence against them! lol. i just think it's pointless to have rules when if they get breached you have no idea of what penalty to get.

ok granted, there were some consistent penalties handed out over the year and sure... you may argue they were severe... but at least they were consistent! like the running out on pitlane red light in Canada... Montoya in 2005 got DQd for doing it and so did Massa and Kubica when they did it in 07. that's what handing out penalties should be like imo.

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Last edited by scermat on 24 Aug 2008, 18:08, edited 3 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 European Grand Prix
PostPosted: 24 Aug 2008, 17:56  
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shail69 wrote:
one thing to mention even if too late but the one minute silence requested by alonso was denied by the FIA


Mr.Bernie and his emotional sensitivity!

ok i apologise for all my ranting today but these things really annoy me as i absolutely love this sport. but its like they want F1 drivers to be frikken robots not human beings. i wanna see them do donuts when they win and celebrate! ala MotoGP!

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 European Grand Prix
PostPosted: 24 Aug 2008, 18:09  
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Hamilton very ill this weekend!! And a neck injury, he almost didn't drive!!

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 European Grand Prix
PostPosted: 24 Aug 2008, 18:17  
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joostlamers wrote:
Hamilton very ill this weekend!! And a neck injury, he almost didn't drive!!

Norbert Haug said Lewis'd had a problem with a trapped nerve in his neck on Saturday before qualifying but that the team masseur had sorted it out by Sunday AM. :O


Raikkonen has been off form quite a lot, he has been outqualified 80% of the time and outdriven 60-70% of the time by Massa
Should Ferrari now go behind Massa for the title? :roll::
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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 European Grand Prix
PostPosted: 24 Aug 2008, 18:20  
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iceman1 wrote:
joostlamers wrote:
Hamilton very ill this weekend!! And a neck injury, he almost didn't drive!!

Norbert Haug said Lewis'd had a problem with a trapped nerve in his neck on Saturday before qualifying but that the team masseur had sorted it out by Sunday AM. :O


Raikkonen has been off form quite a lot, he has been outqualified 80% of the time and outdriven 60-70% of the time by Massa
Should Ferrari now go behind Massa for the title? :roll::

yes I think so, it took him some time to cope with the fact that there's no TC, but now he's in the form of his life, I think. With 4 wins, and 5 points over Raikkonen, I would go for Massa

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 European Grand Prix
PostPosted: 24 Aug 2008, 18:35  
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massa seems to improve a lot in his conditions, but fails in more difficult ones
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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 European Grand Prix
PostPosted: 24 Aug 2008, 18:42  
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Bad race for Raikkonen, unlucky with the blow up though. Will he get a ten place grid penalty for Spa? I bet he will get poll there but have to go down to 11th! He needs to win at his favourite track to have a chance of winning the championship. Massa deserved to win and again an average performance from McLaren and Ferrari, I still believe McLaren have the better car so if they don't win the constructor's it will be a shock and if Lewis doesn't win the WDC it will be a shock and it will be another one of his big let-downs in the last race. 13 points up on Raikkonen...It's been worse for him but times runnning OUT!

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 European Grand Prix
PostPosted: 24 Aug 2008, 18:58  
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he cant get grid penalty for spa as the engine blew up in the race. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 European Grand Prix
PostPosted: 24 Aug 2008, 19:06  
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he did not finish the race so he will not get any penalty for changing anything.
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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 European Grand Prix
PostPosted: 24 Aug 2008, 19:32  
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Spa has never let me down in terms of action and drama and i don't expect to be a boring race this year !
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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 European Grand Prix
PostPosted: 24 Aug 2008, 19:43  
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Stewards' document 41 explained Massa's penalty
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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 European Grand Prix
PostPosted: 24 Aug 2008, 20:00  
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thanks iceman! A real letter: Wooh :roll::

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 European Grand Prix
PostPosted: 24 Aug 2008, 20:07  
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i think it was posted by someone else before so i think you should thank him. i think it was Fergie1
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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 European Grand Prix
PostPosted: 24 Aug 2008, 20:13  
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No, Alonso has nothing to do with this either, and I generally am fairly moderate and fair to everyone.

You are right, the rules should be clear, and should be upheld clearly, and should be graded properly and in detail as to the severity of a particular incident. This is an area which needs overhaul..

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 European Grand Prix
PostPosted: 24 Aug 2008, 20:25  
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sanredrose wrote:
Spa has never let me down in terms of action and drama and i don't expect to be a boring race this year !

Did you miss last years race then? :p
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