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Who will win the 2008 German Grand Prix ?
Kimi Räikkönen 40%  40%  [ 32 ]
Felipe Massa 14%  14%  [ 11 ]
Lewis Hamilton 26%  26%  [ 21 ]
Heikki Kovalainen 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Nick Heidfeld 6%  6%  [ 5 ]
Robert Kubica 7%  7%  [ 6 ]
Jarno Trulli 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Mark Webber 2%  2%  [ 2 ]
Fernando Alonso 5%  5%  [ 4 ]
Total votes : 81
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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 German Grand Prix
PostPosted: 20 Jul 2008, 21:35  
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xyneid wrote:
MP4/4#12 wrote:
Hi Xyneid.
Well, someone (Ferrari) could protest, the act it self is the same, be it on the finish line or in a corner as it was today. Dunno, it`s an issue that has been talked over and over again. I think that to become a WChamp you have to deserve it, Heikki didn`t have the pace but if he could finish in the podium today he should be allowed to get what he fought for, asking a racing driver to let another pass "please"!!! I have to tell ya i DO miss the old days.

Today's case is different from what we saw in 2001 in Austuria between Rubens and Michael. Today, Lewis is way fast then Heikki. He would get past Heikki sooner or later. We saw in this season a couple of times when team mates let his team mate to pass him in France (Kimi/Massa) - (Heikki/Lewis), even in Brazil 2007 Massa/Kimi. Knowing these, can we say FIA banned team orders? Does it have to be on the finish straight like Rubens let Michael to call it a "team order"?


I hate it, even if it is about tactics i don`t like it, but today all pit stops were made so let them race at will. FIA is "closing their eyes" i think to avoid more problems perhaps !!!
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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 German Grand Prix
PostPosted: 20 Jul 2008, 22:31  
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xyneid wrote:
MP4/4#12 wrote:
Hi Xyneid.
Well, someone (Ferrari) could protest, the act it self is the same, be it on the finish line or in a corner as it was today. Dunno, it`s an issue that has been talked over and over again. I think that to become a WChamp you have to deserve it, Heikki didn`t have the pace but if he could finish in the podium today he should be allowed to get what he fought for, asking a racing driver to let another pass "please"!!! I have to tell ya i DO miss the old days.

Today's case is different from what we saw in 2001 in Austuria between Rubens and Michael. Today, Lewis is way fast then Heikki. He would get past Heikki sooner or later. We saw in this season a couple of times when team mates let his team mate to pass him in France (Kimi/Massa) - (Heikki/Lewis), even in Brazil 2007 Massa/Kimi. Knowing these, can we say FIA banned team orders? Does it have to be on the finish straight like Rubens let Michael to call it a "team order"?


in brazil 07 it wasnt as obvious as today because they made the move in the pits and in france this year kimi had problems so massa went by easily and i dont think ferrari told kimi to pull over, he was just really slow..... in regards for today heikki def pulled over for hamilton. heikki is not allowed to race lewis plain and simple at this stage of the season................ if heikki is in front of lewis ron dennis will tell him "pull over"..... yeah i know hamilton was much faster and wouldve probably overtake later in the race but that was bs today

btw the tv camreas had a shot of ron dennis pushing the radio button after hamilton made his pitstop so thats when he probably told heikki to pull over
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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 German Grand Prix
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2008, 02:03  
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Thanks for the video on Sutil! :thumbsup:

I thought it was a good race today, it had alot of overtaking and some fights that was just great to watch! And Nelsons 2nd place, WOW! there did that come from! Im happy for him getting 8 pts this weekend, he really deserves it after beening supervised och critecisted alot this season.

As well as Hamilton, what a driver. Today he ate his opponents for lunch, it was like looking back on Schumie in early 2000 races. Congrats Lewis!

And this team order from Ron, i don't really know what to say. I don't like it at all but I can understand Heikki that he did it obvious. Of course he's pissed at Ron the moment he gets that kind of order. And on the other hand Ron sure dosent want a race fight between Lewis and Heikki and both drivers end up in the gravel, cause it sure has happend strange things in the end of races before for Hamilton :P

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 German Grand Prix
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2008, 06:49  
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Joined: 09 May 2008, 09:08
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I don't khow why kimi has a ploblem in Qualified eveytime.
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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 German Grand Prix
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2008, 07:08  
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iceman1 wrote:
dacer wrote:

Of course, If you said!!!


don't accept this, is like year crane issue. It's Stupid to talk about with anyone who want not to see it

Well it was very obvious that Lewis would pass Kova but it was made it an a very obvious way. And i think Kova clearly showed what his tougths about it.


Do you see, Barrichello vs Button fight. It was obvious one was faster than other, but anyway you have to battle for any position on any laps on any turn. There two races, Kova lets Hamilton pass him. Like Barrichello & shumi.

It's obvious too, that Massa was faster than piquet, but Piquet don't let him pass. And Heidfield wa faster than Massa.........
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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 German Grand Prix
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2008, 07:19  
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dacer, you are clearly missing the point here. McLaren told Kovy to let Hamilton past, which he was pissed off about at the end of the race, but its nowhere like Barrichello and Schumi. watch Austria 2001 and 2002 - then you'll see! And why are you comparing it to Heidfeld and Massa - they are not team mates. Ron Dennis has to think what is best for the team as well as Lewis. He knows that Kovy was slower than Lewis by about a second a lap and thought that Massa would nab Piquet and pull away, so Lewis needed to bang in a few quick laps soon, whilst the soft tyres were still OK to go banzaii on. And if Lewis wasn't let through, he'd have passed him anyway. Not like with Austria 01 or 02.

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 German Grand Prix
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2008, 09:18  
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All i can say ..this will be same highlighted dark spot in Heikki/Mclaren/Hamilton career like it is for Ferrari/Schumi/Ruben.
I Remember.. i had decision with my cousin ..When Ferrari did that i had no answer to critics. :blush:

For me all teams order are same ...as outcomes are same.

Massa - Piquet
At that moment Piquet was faster than Massa .. in other words that Renault was doing well to keep him in front.Massa's Ferrari was indeed badly struggling so even Nick's BMW was able close on him.

Briatore didn't seem to be happy/delighted for Nelson. :p

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 German Grand Prix
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2008, 10:17  
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phil1993 wrote:
dacer, you are clearly missing the point here. McLaren told Kovy to let Hamilton past, which he was pissed off about at the end of the race, but its nowhere like Barrichello and Schumi. watch Austria 2001 and 2002 - then you'll see! And why are you comparing it to Heidfeld and Massa - they are not team mates. Ron Dennis has to think what is best for the team as well as Lewis. He knows that Kovy was slower than Lewis by about a second a lap and thought that Massa would nab Piquet and pull away, so Lewis needed to bang in a few quick laps soon, whilst the soft tyres were still OK to go banzaii on. And if Lewis wasn't let through, he'd have passed him anyway. Not like with Austria 01 or 02.


Not!!! Not!!! and Not!!!

Ron Dennis didn't drive a car. Kovalainen, drive for himself, not for Ron Dennis. Kovalainen, drive to win, and AFTER if he can, help the team with constructor championship. In ALL team, the first to beat is your teammate. You can beat it, if you have to let him past!!!!

Last year, Remember USA, Alonso was faster than Hamilton, and even try to overtake him, but Hamilton moves over track and was near to crash that Alonso can overtake him.
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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 German Grand Prix
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2008, 10:26  
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dacer wrote:
phil1993 wrote:
dacer, you are clearly missing the point here. McLaren told Kovy to let Hamilton past, which he was pissed off about at the end of the race, but its nowhere like Barrichello and Schumi. watch Austria 2001 and 2002 - then you'll see! And why are you comparing it to Heidfeld and Massa - they are not team mates. Ron Dennis has to think what is best for the team as well as Lewis. He knows that Kovy was slower than Lewis by about a second a lap and thought that Massa would nab Piquet and pull away, so Lewis needed to bang in a few quick laps soon, whilst the soft tyres were still OK to go banzaii on. And if Lewis wasn't let through, he'd have passed him anyway. Not like with Austria 01 or 02.


Not!!! Not!!! and Not!!!

Ron Dennis didn't drive a car. Kovalainen, drive for himself, not for Ron Dennis. Kovalainen, drive to win, and AFTER if he can, help the team with constructor championship. In ALL team, the first to beat is your teammate. You can beat it, if you have to let him past!!!!

Last year, Remember USA, Alonso was faster than Hamilton, and even try to overtake him, but Hamilton moves over track and was near to crash that Alonso can overtake him.



right, i dont want to start a 3rd world war over this, but Hamilton is the teams number one. I think you have some sort fo hatred for McLaren - (Alonso fan?? :p ) - but lets leave this alone and keep the forum friendly

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 German Grand Prix
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2008, 10:39  
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Not, I only hate Formula1-Master, Ron Dennis!!. You have to understand that any driver drove to win. It's stupid talk about if Kova must or not have Hamilton overtake him. It's like crane issue last year. THESE MUST NOT BE ALLOWED.

If fia allow it, ok maybe anyone win money. But on this forum, these must not be justified.
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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 German Grand Prix
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2008, 12:10  
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Dacer, I'm certainly not a Macca fan (just look at my avatar :cheezy: ) but I have no problem with a slower driver moving over for a faster as such. Remember Fisi has been told to do the same for Alonso - and also Alonso has been told to move over for Fisi. (USA 2006) Heidfeld has moved over for Kubica, Massa for Kimi etc etc. Fine.

What I have a problem with is the McLaren hypocrisy - our drivers are dead equal and bla bla. McLaren are the same as any other team, not a bit better and even worse, because they are somewhat like in Orwell's 1984:

"All our drivers are equal, but some drivers are more equal than others"

Because you are absolutely right about USA 2007 - Alonso was faster than Hamilton but was Hamilton asked to move over? Oh no.... :roll::

Double standards if you ask me. I almost prefer Ferrari's blatant #1-#2 policy of the MS era, because they were at least honest about it.

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 German Grand Prix
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2008, 13:22  
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Joined: 06 Jul 2008, 13:36
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dacer wrote:
phil1993 wrote:
dacer, you are clearly missing the point here. McLaren told Kovy to let Hamilton past, which he was pissed off about at the end of the race, but its nowhere like Barrichello and Schumi. watch Austria 2001 and 2002 - then you'll see! And why are you comparing it to Heidfeld and Massa - they are not team mates. Ron Dennis has to think what is best for the team as well as Lewis. He knows that Kovy was slower than Lewis by about a second a lap and thought that Massa would nab Piquet and pull away, so Lewis needed to bang in a few quick laps soon, whilst the soft tyres were still OK to go banzaii on. And if Lewis wasn't let through, he'd have passed him anyway. Not like with Austria 01 or 02.


Not!!! Not!!! and Not!!!

Ron Dennis didn't drive a car. Kovalainen, drive for himself, not for Ron Dennis. Kovalainen, drive to win, and AFTER if he can, help the team with constructor championship. In ALL team, the first to beat is your teammate. You can beat it, if you have to let him past!!!!

Last year, Remember USA, Alonso was faster than Hamilton, and even try to overtake him, but Hamilton moves over track and was near to crash that Alonso can overtake him.


Dacer, My Man,

A few pages back you politely asked me how old am I and how long I have been watching F1. I really hope this was a rhetorical question.

In fact Kovalainen DOES drive for Ron Dennis. The dollar stops with Ron Dennis. Beyond the facade of equality and honor and high morals, one does as Ron wants or else. OR ELSE. Look no further than a year ago, with Hami & Alonso. Or even further back when Montoya drove for him. Are they still driving at McLaren ? No. Now it would be unjust to you to take you all the way to Senna & Prost so I will only go back as far as Hakkinen & Coulthard: David did what Ron wanted - he let Hakkinen win in the very first race they had in a competitive car: the 1998 Australian GP. If you don't do as Ron (and Norbert and Mansour Ojjeh etc) want(s), you simply get out of the squad. And Kovi is not in a position to take his vast experience (?) and race wins (?) and say to the other 9 teams: look I am no longer driving at McLaren but I can drive for any one of you.

Kovi knows he is at a disadvantage and this sort of issues step on his pride but he is young and he found himself in the best car at the moment. It is very much a Massa-Schumacher (or Rubens-Schumacher) deal. HE is our favorite son. But you get the best equipment and you implicitly have the opportunity to win races maybe even the championship. But that is at the cost of respecting team orders.

I am a firm believer in team orders. They've been around in every sport since sports were invented by People Hunting a little before the agrarian revolution. Not a time when my knowledge is strong but in the 50's and 60's team orders were more gentlemen in nature. Such as stopping and giving your team mate your car when-if he broke down. These it is both forbidden by regulations but also stipulated in contracts. Teams that have a # 1 driver be that by contract or by "behavior" have historically fared better. Look no further than Renault (1994, 1995, 2005, 2006) Ferrari (1996-2006), McLaren (1998-2001).

Ok I am done. Too much F1 on a monday morning.
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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 German Grand Prix
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2008, 15:05  
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Suntrek wrote:
Double standards if you ask me. I almost prefer Ferrari's blatant #1-#2 policy of the MS era, because they were at least honest about it.

That's what's irritating me most too. McLaren is always claiming equal policy even though everyone knows that it's a lie so why don't they just admit the truth? Of course people don't like it, but they hate it even more when the team is just lying and trying to make up excuses.

And it's true that with Kovalainen it was the kind of situation like "let Lewis pass or get fired". FIA says that team orders are banned, but the team can still decide who drives for them and who does not. So if Kovalainen doesn't obey, he's out and with no wins and no championships he won't be getting another team slot that easily.

I just thought that after Schumacher left in 2006 we wouldn't see these kind of things anymore. But McLaren learned from Ferrari back then how to win the championship and now they're doing just that. Kovalainen will just be another Barrichello. Too bad, what a wasted career.

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 German Grand Prix
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2008, 17:43  
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Darn, for some reason I put my money on Massa's win!

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 FORMULA 1 German Grand Prix
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2008, 22:46  
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Did anyone happen to see the video of Kimi at the German Gp. If you don't know what I'm talking about ...
http://jalopnik.com/398970/kimi-raikkon ... oplay=true
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